# Book: "The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump..." **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 25, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247 "2017-09-25T02:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/61 "2017-09-28T12:36:40Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > The fact that psychology can be used in partisan political attacks doesn’t prove that the field is “problematic.” Much hard science can be legitimately pressed into service for partisan political attacks; the discussion of climate change is an obvious example. If I attack a politician whose policies I’d like to fight by employing scientific fact in the service of what I believe, that doesn’t make the science any less true or objective. I think it is more than a stretch to call this kind of long-distance diagnosis “scientific fact”. If these psychologists and psychiatrists want us to believe that they are objective, then they will have to look at lists of tweets from a bunch of people without knowing whether they agree with their politics or not, and see how closely their diagnoses agree with each other. The record of mental health professionals in predicting future danger is not particularly good or well-established. ([Cite](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjz5KyZ8cfWAhVJ1CYKHbkzC0gQFggtMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholarship.law.upenn.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D5776%26context%3Dpenn_law_review&usg=AFQjCNEYToPc11eVhOKycKJmO66nCicBWw) [cite](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjz5KyZ8cfWAhVJ1CYKHbkzC0gQFgheMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjamanetwork.com%2Fjournals%2Fjamapsychiatry%2Ffullarticle%2F490744&usg=AFQjCNEOIoUTa7YjqXllTH2C3B8zrGTJiw), [cite](https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=81404)). And that is generally in cases where the psychologist has actually met the patient. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/62 "2017-09-28T16:38:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think it is more than a stretch to call this kind of long-distance diagnosis “scientific fact”. Sure. Let me know where I said “long distance diagnosis of Trump is scientific fact” and I will explain/backpedal/insert previously missing nuance as needed. Making an evidence-based interpretation of stuff that really happened is a little different from someone flatly stating, “Trump’s nuttiness is scientific FACT!!!” Anyone who does the latter is going too far, IMHO. Rationally presenting evidence that tends to lead professionally qualified people toward that conclusion is a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/63 "2017-09-28T17:32:29Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Sure. Let me know where I said “long distance diagnosis of Trump is scientific fact” and I will explain/backpedal/insert previously missing nuance as needed. This is the part I was talking about - > [@](#): > > If I attack a politician whose policies I’d like to fight by employing scientific fact in the service of what I believe, that doesn’t make the science any less true or objective. > [@](#): > > Making an evidence-based interpretation of stuff that really happened is a little different from someone flatly stating, “Trump’s nuttiness is scientific FACT!!!” Anyone who does the latter is going too far, IMHO. Rationally presenting evidence that tends to lead professionally qualified people toward that conclusion is a different matter. The blurb from the book says > [@](#): > > The consensus view of two dozen psychiatrists and psychologists that Trump is dangerously mentally ill and that he presents a clear and present danger to the nation and our own mental health. If their diagnoses are not scientific fact, then they are not using scientific fact in service of the conclusion that Trump is dangerously mentally ill. If it is claimed that it is scientific fact, then they haven’t done a very good job of establishing it. Any at all, actually. Also, read my cites on the track record of psychiatrists on predicting who is dangerous - it is not very strong. As I said, if these psychologists and psychiatrists can diagnose mental illness without meeting the person merely by observation, then let’s see them do it when partisan politics is not involved. If they can, then maybe we can take all this more seriously than now seems necessary. But not until then. As mentioned, this kind of thing has been happening for a while, and not just with Goldwater. Clinton was a sexual psychopath, Bush was a megalomaniac, etc. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/64 "2017-09-29T06:29:43Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > It was silly when Sen. Frist diagnosed Terri Schivo from watching her on TV, it’s silly now for these doctors to try and do the same with Trumplethinskin. It doesn’t help. and it just gives his base something else to feel persecuted about. This is a dumb analogy. You can diagnose a psychological condition based on behavior. And multiple doctors is better than one. They fucked up our country by not doing this before he was elected. The least they can do is get it out there now. Sure, it will just upset his base, but his base is unreachable anyways. We just need to give fuel to the cause of getting rid of him. There’s no way Congress or his cabinet will do it unless there are enough people in the country itself on board with the idea. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/65 "2017-09-29T06:37:13Z")
Psychology is a real science, **Shodan**. Their diagnoses are factual. They are based on actual criteria that have been tested through the scientific method. And we already know from actual direct evidence that Trump is dangerous. He’s trying to start a war with North Korea. For reasons that make no rational sense. He’s done things that are already clearly dangerous. That’s how they can be so sure. I’m tired of psychology being treated like a pseudoscience. We don’t need this anti-intellectual crap again. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/66 "2017-09-29T08:42:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Psychology is a real science, **Shodan**. Their diagnoses are factual. They are based on actual criteria that have been tested through the scientific method. > > And we already know from actual direct evidence that Trump is dangerous. He’s trying to start a war with North Korea. For reasons that make no rational sense. He’s done things that are already clearly dangerous. That’s how they can be so sure. > > I’m tired of psychology being treated like a pseudoscience. We don’t need this anti-intellectual crap again. This is completely bogus. Please link to any tests in specifically psychology that employ the scientific method. Also, since we don’t understand so much that goes on inside the brain, the idea that personality disorder diagnosis are factual is pure fiction. The above is wishful thinking based on emotion and actually anti-intellectual. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/67 "2017-09-29T09:03:30Z")
That’s not entirely fair, it is fully as tested as Angelology; and as 80% of Americans know angels are real and 55% have their own guardian angel. I can tell you the angels aren’t happy with Trump, and want us to have him removed from power. And some of them want BigT installed as temporary dictator. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/68 "2017-09-29T11:42:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Their diagnoses are factual. No they aren’t - they’re subjective opinion. > [@](#): > > They are based on actual criteria that have been tested through the scientific method. Then link to the studies that objectively establish them. Actually, it would be easier if you read thru the links I have already provided, which are the opposite of what you claim. > [@](#): > > We don’t need this anti-intellectual crap again. You’re right, we don’t. So let’s see your studies. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/69 "2017-09-29T17:30:12Z")
It’s never going to be a medical “scientific fact” that twitler needs to be removed from office. It’s just a fact that we all can see. Even he can see it. He is behaving as if he wants to be removed from office. All of psychology and psychiatry rests on consensus, and observation. It is the closest we ever get to scientific fact in the world of human behavior. I don’t think they wrote the book for any other agenda. It’s a big thing to do. People might want to listen. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/70 "2017-09-29T18:04:06Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > It’s never going to be a medical “scientific fact” that twitler needs to be removed from office. It’s just a fact that we all can see. Even he can see it. He is behaving as if he wants to be removed from office. > > All of psychology and psychiatry rests on consensus, and observation. It is the closest we ever get to scientific fact in the world of human behavior. I don’t think they wrote the book for any other agenda. It’s a big thing to do. People might want to listen. Psychiatry=MD Psychology=PhD One is more rooted in science than the other. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/71 "2017-09-29T22:06:37Z")
ThelmaLou: nice to know I’m dismissive of “intellectuals” like academics. I could’ve sworn that I work in academia, maybe I’m mistaken. You’ll have to clarify why you think that, all I think is that these psychologists can talk about Trump’s mental state all they want, but it is disingenuous to present that image of the field to the public (such as see below). madsircool: all of this is only true when you hold an incredibly narrow (and false) definition of psychology. Seriously, it’s like assuming that all doctors rap because the only one know know by name is Dr. Dre. There are clinical psychologists, but that’s only one area in the dozens that make up the field. I also wouldn’t characterize psychiatry as being more scientific than psychology. one of the biggest criticisms of psychiatry is that they use the “shotgun approach” and prescribe a bunch of meds until they find one that works, but there is no real way to determine that ahead of time. Medical doctors also use scientific _techniques_, but ones that are actual scientists are more of an exception than a rule. Hospital and private doctors don’t usually use the \*scientific method \*in their practice. Also I’m not sure that at least Chomsky at least has any certification in therapy or mental health? I don’t think Zimbardo is either. They are the types of psychologist that madsircool is seemingly unaware of. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/72 "2017-09-29T22:24:14Z")
If I have diabitis, I can go to an MD and he will understand the nature of the disease and an appropriate coarse of treatment. If I go to a psychologist with depression, he or she will not know the physiological cause and will not have a time tested course of treatment. A psychologist will not be able to prescribe medication. This is not to say that effective treatment won’t be rendered but they won’t know just why. Until we have a better understanding of the brain psychology will be hit and miss. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/73 "2017-09-29T22:49:49Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Psychiatry=MD > Psychology=PhD > > One is more rooted in science than the other. One dispenses drugs, the other doesn’t. But they are all in the same boat. What diagnosis will a psychiatrist give that the psychologist cannot because they are “less rooted” in science? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/74 "2017-09-29T23:00:35Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > ThelmaLou: nice to know I’m dismissive of “intellectuals” like academics. I could’ve sworn that I work in academia, maybe I’m mistaken. You’ll have to clarify why you think that, all I think is that these psychologists can talk about Trump’s mental state all they want, but it is disingenuous to present that image of the field to the public (such as see below). > > madsircool: all of this is only true when you hold an incredibly narrow (and false) definition of psychology. Seriously, it’s like assuming that all doctors rap because the only one know know by name is Dr. Dre. There are clinical psychologists, but that’s only one area in the dozens that make up the field. > > I also wouldn’t characterize psychiatry as being more scientific than psychology. one of the biggest criticisms of psychiatry is that they use the “shotgun approach” and prescribe a bunch of meds until they find one that works, but there is no real way to determine that ahead of time. Medical doctors also use scientific _techniques_, but ones that are actual scientists are more of an exception than a rule. Hospital and private doctors don’t usually use the \*scientific method \*in their practice. > > Also I’m not sure that at least Chomsky at least has any certification in therapy or mental health? I don’t think Zimbardo is either. They are the types of psychologist that madsircool is seemingly unaware of. This is so true. Psychiatrists are among the nuttiest and least scientific subgroups in the world. They dispense meds basically. If you have a problem they will give you another med or adjust a dosage. If you break down they will be long gone. They will put you on meds that you may never get off of, or want to kill yourself rather than face going through the process of tapering off for years. But it’s your fault because you showed up and volunteered yourself as a patient. \*\*They see patients for 20 minutes at a time. \*\* This is science? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/75 "2017-09-29T23:21:15Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > One dispenses drugs, the other doesn’t. But they are all in the same boat. > > What diagnosis will a psychiatrist give that the psychologist cannot because they are “less rooted” in science? Psychiatrists go to medical school and are rooted in neuroscience. Not so much psychologists. Psychologists are effective for conditions where councilling is effective. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/76 "2017-09-29T23:34:38Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > This is so true. > > Psychiatrists are among the nuttiest and least scientific subgroups in the world. They dispense meds basically. If you have a problem they will give you another med or adjust a dosage. If you break down they will be long gone. They will put you on meds that you may never get off of, or want to kill yourself rather than face going through the process of tapering off for years. But it’s your fault because you showed up and volunteered yourself as a patient. > > \*\*They see patients for 20 minutes at a time. > \*\* > This is science? I mostly agree, though would be the first to defend them when the Scientologists are around. It’s not done this way because psychiatrists are quacks like many chiropractors are. It’s just the best way that we have. > [@madsircool](#): > > Psychiatrists go to medical school and are rooted in neuroscience. Not so much psychologists. Psychologists are effective for conditions where councilling is effective. I went to non-medical graduate school and am rooted in neuroscience. I know fuck-all about counseling, except from the patient’s side. But again, practice and theory are much different. Ben Carson was one of the best neurosurgeons in the world, and even in retirement is probably very skilled. I wouldn’t trust him to write a scientific textbook, though. Hell, even without the political baggage, whoever is the current top neurosurgeon probably is not the best candidate to do research or write about non-surgical aspects of the brain. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/77 "2017-09-29T23:59:06Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Psychiatrists go to medical school and are rooted in neuroscience. Not so much psychologists. Psychologists are effective for conditions where councilling is effective. The MDs are in the thrall of the healthcare and pharma industries. It is not a science as commonly understood. It never was. And also the pharma influence keeps it from happening. It’s an experiment at the public expense. PhDs can be anything. They can actually be in it to do good. They can be visionary, compassionate, versed in meditation traditions, etc. Behaviorally donald is very sick. If the baboon has a malignant psychological condition no scientific proof would likely ever be seen as evidence before some catastrophe. I assume that behavior is not “proof” to trump supporters that he is sick…? It must be a Medical diagnosis? ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/78 "2017-09-30T00:50:57Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Please link to any tests in specifically psychology that employ the scientific method. [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322397002539](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322397002539) > **[Suicide risk: Variety of dialectical behavior therapy interventions with...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150325132516.htm)** > > A variety of dialectical behavior therapy interventions helped to reduce suicide attempts and nonsuicidal self-injury acts in a randomized clinical trial of women with borderline personality disorder who were highly suicidal. > **[Baskin-SommersKrusemarkRonninstam\_Empathy.pdf](https://modlab.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/Baskin-SommersKrusemarkRonninstam_Empathy.pdf)** > > 157.93 KB > **[The Genetics of Schizophrenia](https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0020212)** > > Research into the etiology of schizophrenia, particularly the possible genetic basis, has never been as interesting and as provocative as in the past three years. Sullivan looks critically at the key research. [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322397002539](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322397002539) ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/79 "2017-09-30T01:47:15Z")
With the exception of the NPD study, these are not specifically psychology. Even in that study, it doesn’t meet the standard of repeatability. A researcher needs the experience of medical school imo. I am not a psychiatrist, but what a bizarre statement that a person with the training of a psychologist with medical school is somehow less knowledgeable than a simple psychologist. I wish a psychiatrist would chime in. I’m not qualified to defend them. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247/80 "2017-09-30T04:07:13Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > With the exception of the NPD study, these are not specifically psychology. Even in that study, it doesn’t meet the standard of repeatability. A researcher needs the experience of medical school imo. > > I am not a psychiatrist, but what a bizarre statement that a person with the training of a psychologist with medical school is somehow less knowledgeable than a simple psychologist. > > I wish a psychiatrist would chime in. I’m not qualified to defend them. I don’t know your life experience but think of all the Drs you have ever known. Aren’t there a lot of them who are crazy, in a vernacular sense, or maybe just dangerous? I have enough experience to get the contour, and I live in a world center for this. It takes a “special” kind of person to go through med school. Drs are some of the craziest people out there. (And they are very unwise in their own emotional and family lives). Becoming a Psych MD is a different kind of animal from other Drs and other Psychs. And they aren’t true scientists. They are not healers. They don’t do therapy. If they do it’s psychoanalysis, basically for rich folks. If you come to them with an emotional problem they will ask you whether you are talking to your therapist, and wish you well. They will respond to all stimuli, if you require it from them to leave the office, with another drug. What does that tell you? It tells me beware all who enter here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/book-the-dangerous-case-of-donald-trump/797247.md?page=5)