# Books for Fundies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2000, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924 "2000-12-04T08:38:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2000, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/41 "2000-12-07T05:22:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\*But you had to turn it into a “prove DITWD is wrong” thread. Well, I am turning this into a “prove Ben is wrong thread”- and so far i am winning. \*\* Moderator? DITWD has just admitted that he is hijacking this thread in order to pursue a personal vendetta against me. If he were attacking me in the original thread, or in the Pit, fine and well- but it’s unfair to the other participants in this thread for him to be bringing in an argument that is totally unrelated to anything going on here. It’s not even clear to me why he’s bringing it up here at all, rather than continuing his attacks in the “Historical Records” thread. As a courtesy to the others in this thread, I will quote DITWD’s post in its entirety in the “Historical records” thread and reply to it there. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2000, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/42 "2000-12-07T07:50:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Opus1 \* > DITWD, if you have a better way to measure ignorance, I’d love to see it. Short of giving everyone a multiple choice test over the phone to see what they know, a college education is the most reliable test of knowledge available. \*\* Are you saying that everyone without a College degree is “ignorant”? Or that having a college degree protects one from being ignorant? Ok, maybe there is some justification for the 2nd, but a lack of a college degree does not make someone- in any way- ignorant. Perhaps “less well educated”, at best. He did not call “fundies” less educated - he called them ignorant, which is an entriel different thing. Note, from Oxford: “Ignorant: lacking knowledge or experience”. Education may indeed, TRY to impart knowledge, but it does not impart 'experience". But, you can indeed, become 'self- educated". Umm, what College did Aristotle go to? How about DaVinci? Galileo? In any case, your site has nothing what so ever to do with this question- it talks about the “mailbox missionary”. But, remember, Ben accepts cites from firsthand experts only, no secondhand cites for hom. That is argeuing from “authority”. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2000, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/43 "2000-12-07T08:01:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > > \*\*But you had to turn it into a “prove DITWD is wrong” thread. Well, I am turning this into a “prove Ben is wrong thread”- and so far i am winning. \*\* > > Moderator? DITWD has just admitted that he is hijacking this thread in order to pursue a personal vendetta against me. > -Ben \*\* No, you made a way out of line statement- “Fundies are ignorant”- and I’m calling you on it- “back it up, or back down”. Yes, I might very well have let this bald faced biased assertion go- except that you said in the other thread- that even if someone agreed, in general, with a poster, it is their DUTY to call them on such unsupported statements & poor debating techniques- even if the thread is hijacked. Was there anything “personal” in the “vendetta” you pursued against me? Or just a search for the “truth”? Are you going to back up that statement, or admit you were wrong? Or don’t you think that YOUR debating techniques need improvement? ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2000, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/44 "2000-12-07T14:28:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\* > If you were going to create a reading list for fundies, what would be on it? \*\* a physics textbook an astronomy textbook a biology textbook a pamphlet describing the scientific method and what “theory” means Darwin’s Origin of Species Sagan’s Demon-Haunted World the “bibles” of other religions ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2000, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/45 "2000-12-07T15:31:38Z")
[ul][li]Nelson’s Illustrated Manners and Customs of the Bible - Packer and Tenney.[/li][li]Talk Thru the Bible - Wilkinson and Boa[/li][li]Exploring Church History - Vos[/li][li]Answers to Tough Questions - McDowell and Stewart[/li][li]The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict - Josh McDowell[/li][li]Hard Sayings of the Bible - Kaiser, Davids, Brauch and Bruce[/li][li] **Max Lucado** [list][/li][li]Just Like Jesus[/li][li]The Grip of Grace[/li][li]When Christ Comes[/li][li]He Chose the Nails[/ul][/li][li]\*\*Phillip Yancey \*\*[ul][/li][li]Just Like Jesus[/li][li]What is So Amazing about Grace[/li][li]Disappointment with God[/li][li]The Bible Jesus Read[/ul][/li][/list] Prolly not what you were looking for… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2000, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/46 "2000-12-07T22:42:31Z")
_Why Christianity Must Change or Die Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism Living in Sin?_ all by John Shelby Spong _Your God Is Too Small_ by J.B. Phillips _Situation Ethics_ by Joseph Fletcher ::: waves hello at 'Gator ::: ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2001, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/47 "2001-03-01T14:47:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*What books? Hell, how about my whole damned bookshelf! (Including the Terry Pratchett books!) > \*\* Sorry to resurrect this, but it seems like such a good topic before DITWD’s hijack, and since David and I have almost the same bookshelf that I want to pick his brains further and make a recommendation myself: (IMHO) The single greatest Skeptical book of the 20th century: Martin Gardner’s masterpiece Fads and Fallacies In The Name of Science. He discusses everything from Hollow Earth theory, to $cientology to nutball “miracle cures” (fix near-sightedness by _rubbing your eyes!_) to Creationism. He examines them rigorously, but with a good sense of humor. David, I suspect you’ve read it, but if you haven’t…trust me and get it. And more recommendations everyone: I’m taking notes! Fenris ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2001, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/48 "2001-03-02T02:22:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > **_The Demon-Haunted World_ by Carl Sagan** Read it. > [@](#): > > **_Why People Believe Weird Things_ by Michael Shermer** Reading it. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2001, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/49 "2001-03-02T02:35:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBeer \* > **I recommend [_Steve Allen on the Bible, Religion, and Morality_](http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=3MZI9IZRZO&mscssid=HXDSEVGVU8489JPFF1S5178XU2F5AGK4&isbn=0879756381) (yes, _the_ Steve Allen).** Don’t forget the sequel, which was simply titled _MORE Steve Allen on the Bible, Religion and Morality._ ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2001, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/50 "2001-03-02T06:04:27Z")
Since posting here the first time, I’ve read “Stealing Jesus” by Bruce Bawer, and this is no running neck-and-neck with Karen Armstrong as my suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2001, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/51 "2001-03-02T06:36:59Z")
New addition! Just listed as book of the month at Internet Infidels, it is: [The Bible Unearthed](http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=651) Can’t wait to get it off ILL (since the UCI library never has any good religion books…) ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2001, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/52 "2001-03-02T22:47:08Z")
The God We Never Knew by Marcus Borg Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes by Hawthorne ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/53 "2001-03-02T23:56:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes by Hawthorne \*\* ::hanging my head low in shame:: That will teach me not to work from my faulty memory. Omnipotence … is by Charles Hartshorne. At least it rhymes. :wally ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2001, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/54 "2001-03-03T01:22:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Opus1 \* > \*\*[The Bible Unearthed](http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=651) > > Can’t wait to get it off ILL (since the UCI library never has any good religion books…) \*\* The Los Angeles Public Library has copies, but, currently, they are all checked out, according to their website. [http://www.lapl.org](http://www.lapl.org) Click on “CATALOG,” then click on “Search the Catalog…” After that, you’re on your own. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2001, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/55 "2001-03-03T04:43:24Z")
Homebrew wrote: > [@](#): > > The God We Never Knew by Marcus Borg You will be assimilated. Religion is futile. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2001, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/56 "2001-03-03T05:01:17Z")
> [@](#): > > You will be assimilated. Religion is futile. Hmmm… Does that make you a Borg-Warner? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/57 "2001-03-10T19:21:04Z")
I also recommend _The Five Ages of the Universe – Inside The Physics of Eternity_ by physicists Fred Adams and Greg Laughlin. A good book to learn the current thinking about how the visible universe came into being and how it’s most likely to end up. (We’re in the second age of the universe, BTW.) However, I must mention that **ghoti** , who posts at [The Pizza Parlor,](http://thebruces.stormbirds.org) has claimed that he has read this book and he STILL clings to Divine Action. I get the feeling that if we could make every fundie read every good science textbook ever written, many of them would _still_ cling to 6-dayism and reject biological evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2001, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/58 "2001-03-10T20:13:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\*However, I must mention that **ghoti** , who posts at [The Pizza Parlor,](http://thebruces.stormbirds.org) has claimed that he has read this book and he STILL clings to Divine Action. \*\* Fwiw, ghoti claims to have taken extensive coursework in evolutionary biology and related subjects. In fact, he claims it just about every time I catch him in a basic error which is refuted at length in any introductory-level evolutionary biology textbook… -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/59 "2001-03-12T08:19:14Z")
The first task is to open minds. So I’d suggest stuff such as: [ul] [li]Hamlet[/li][li]King Lear[/li][li]Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead[/li][li]Paradise Lost[/li][li]Leaves of Grass[/li][li]The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy[/li][li]Norse Mythology[/li][li]Good sci-fi (Heinlein, Niven, Cordwainer Smith, Iain M. Banks, Vernor Vinge…)[/li][li]the novels of Raymond Chandler and Dashiell Hammett[/li][li]the poetry of Ted Hughes, Pablo Neruda, Seamus Heaney, Anne Carsons…[/li][/ul] These could be read before, or interspersed with the more scholarly books already mentioned. jm ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924/60 "2001-03-12T23:24:40Z")
We haven’t mentioned any of the periodicals folks should read: _Scientific American, Discover, Smithsonian, Sky & Telescope, Astronomy,_ and \*Archaeology \* to name just a few. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/books-for-fundies/43924.md?page=4)