# Booksnobbery **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 21, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196 "2012-08-21T19:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/21 "2012-08-21T21:50:45Z")
[QUOTE=Antigen] Someone reading “kids’ books” isn’t going to want to read Asimov [/QUOTE] [Lucky Starr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Starr_series) would like to have a word with you. ---
**Author:** ![Tad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@Tad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tad)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/22 "2012-08-21T22:04:46Z")
It’s important that people read, I think, but it does matter what kinds of things they are choosing to read. Crappy pulp novels or tween books might perpetuate gender stereotypes or whatever else. Pay attention to the messages given rather than the weight the story carries in terms of philosophical, moral, ethical, etc, weight. Anyway, I might be snobbier because I think the novel is a failed experiment at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/23 "2012-08-21T22:25:47Z")
I feel like a lot of current YA started out as regular fiction and then became YA because the authors weren’t talented enough to write a more mature book. I didn’t crystallize this feeling until I read the Hunger Games trilogy, just before the movie came out. Really neat idea, very poorly executed. The whole thing felt like a copout. Guys like E.B. White and Roald Dahl, on the other hand, set out to write stories for children and ended up writing completely magical stories that continue to capture the imaginations of adults. So when you get crap like _Twilight_, it’s not kids’ faults that they’re loving it. They don’t know that it’s puerile trash. But they should definitely be pointed, gently, to something better. ---
**Author:** ![phall0106](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phall0106/32/5934_2.png) [@phall0106](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phall0106)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/24 "2012-08-21T23:27:55Z")
Wow. I read for entertainment and for the pure joy of getting lost in a book. As a result, I read quite a bit of different genres (including some of the titles already mentioned in this thread–however, they’re not the only genres I read). I guess I read all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons. But it feels so good. ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/25 "2012-08-21T23:38:57Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I didn’t crystallize this feeling until I read the Hunger Games trilogy, just before the movie came out. Really neat idea, very poorly executed. It has its flaws, but The Hunger Games is better than most of the turgid dreck that’s published as serious fiction these days. That’s why people read it. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/26 "2012-08-22T00:49:55Z")
> [@Antigen](#): > > I’m a book snob. > … > … > I’d like this to open up into a discussion, if anyone’s game. I need help pinning down what it is that bugs me about YA and fluff, because otherwise I don’t see how I will ever change that prejudice. I have to ask, have you read _Twilight, Hunger Games_, or _50 Shades of Gray_? I notice that you have trashed three very popular books that are generally considered of questionable “literary” merit. But that is like trashing an action movie for being weak on character development - that wasn’t the goal. These three books - from what I’ve heard - are about acknowledging visceral fears. _Twilight_ in particular seems to address everything a girl on the edge of adulthood would fear. Okay, I haven’t read them, either, and I probably won’t. But this is about you. You seem to be judging people on a single event, about which you are uninformed. There are some ugly words for that. Have you ever asked anyone reading _The Hunger Games_ what they thought of the book? Maybe the plot moves very well, or there is a particularly engaging character, or they just feel the need for a female hero at this point in life. Maybe they hate it, but just can’t not finish a book. The popularity seems to be an issue with you. Could it be what you really so snobbish about is that? But we’re all snobbish about something. My dirty little secret is the phrase “lyrical prose” in a review; I assume anyone who reads such a novel is only interested in appearing sophisticated and well-read, and doesn’t really like books. I think “lyrical prose” is the output of a failed poet who doesn’t have a clue about plot or character development. I lose respect for a person reading a novel praised for its “lyrical prose”. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/27 "2012-08-22T00:57:37Z")
_snoots into thread_ Oh. I see this thread is almost entirely about _fiction_. _snoots away in disgust_ ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/28 "2012-08-22T01:52:28Z")
> [@Antigen](#): > > I have re-read Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, and Anne of Green Gables, dozens of times. I count them among my favorite books, despite the fact that they’re intended for younger readers. Yes, those are wonderful books. But they’re fluff. There’s nothing more to them than to your average Harlequin–just engaging, diverting little stories to kill a little time with. The Hunger Games books, which you pre-emptively dismiss as crap, are far more thematically complex and challenging. If it makes you feel any better, I’m just as judgey about people who automatically look down their noses at YA lit as you are about people who read YA. I consider them…well, limited and a little sad. Because dismissing those books out of hand means you miss out on some really good stuff. :shrug: Everybody’s judgey about something. ---
**Author:** ![jabiru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@jabiru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jabiru)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/29 "2012-08-22T02:15:31Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > have you ever read anything by Marion Chesney? she also writes a couple of series as M.C. Beaton including the Agatha Raisin books. > > they are not very good. not, usually, horrible - but just _not very good_ and yet she has tremendous success. > > can’t believe it.:smack: I’ve read two of the Agatha Raisin books. I like a good whodunnit and the first I read sounded reasonably OK. I read the second to make sure I hadn’t just picked a bad first choice. I agree her books are rubbish. I think I’m a bit of a booksnob myself, although I have nothing to be snobby about, having just admitted to enjoying crime fiction. I used to love SF but can’t really find anything I like these days. Most of what sits in the SF shelf now is more fantasy which I don’t like at all. Can’t bring myself to read YA but I do have a hankering to reread some Trixie Belden. :o ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/30 "2012-08-22T02:21:43Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > There’s nothing more to them than to your average Harlequin–just engaging, diverting little stories to kill a little time with. I highly doubt there are any Harlequin romance novels with anywhere near the playful (and skillful) use of language as that contained in “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland”. Lewis’ interest in logic shines through that story, as well as “Through the Looking Glass”. They are not just nonsense - they are very artfully crafted nonsense. _looks around shiftily_ At least, I would assume they were. If I read fiction. _snoot_ ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/31 "2012-08-22T02:36:15Z")
I enjoy book pablum. I started reading seriously again when I bought my kobo; I read every Sherlock Holmes story, every DS9 Star Trek Story, and now I’m getting into Leslie Charteris’ “The Saint.” People have accused me of being a music snob in the past, because of my love of baroque, but I listen to tons of popular music as well, so I don’t think I have the exclusivity to be a snob. I read a few pages of “Fifty Shades” over my girlfriend’s shoulder, and there were enough things about the author’s prose which annoyed me, that I would never read them, smut notwithstanding. I don’t judge her for reading it, it just mildly annoys me if she tries to tell me how awesome they are. Perhaps the self-identified snobs here will correct me, but I have this awful image in my head when I think of a “book snob.” Maybe for you, it just means reading complex books. For me, it’s a much more aggressive vision. I picture the Russian scientist glasses with the turtleneck sweater, flags sticking out of an old worn copy of The Dubliners (with the really good parts highlighted), and a shelf full of books newly translated from Urdu and Zulu. Kind of this weird English PhD/Hipster. “The breadpan was symbolizing her vagina! God, how fucking dense are you? It would have made sense if you had read some Zizek.” It’s not that I’m dumb or illierate. At least I don’t think I am; I do have a masters in the humanities, FWIW. But reading novels is supposed to be my fun, and I don’t have fun when I’m being challenged. I don’t listen to Schoenberg on the ride home from school, and I don’t much care to hang a Jackson Pollock print over my air hockey table. In that same vein, I’m not too inclined to have complex novels waiting next to my night table before I go to sleep! ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/32 "2012-08-22T02:41:02Z")
If I disliked people who don’t read, I’d miss out on getting to know most of the people on earth. Quasi-readers are interesting in what they do choose to read. I think YA books have become more complex, a sign of people (kids) becoming smarter sooner in this more complex world. (We always think we’re world-weary, don’t we, no matter what century we’re born in.) Nineteenth century novels begin with _pages_ of setting. That would never cut it now. So styles change in response to time available to indulge. Even people who “don’t read” can tell you that scandal sheets are more succinct now. I’m waiting for the perfect poem that consists of only one word. I’m pretty sure it will be “This.” ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/33 "2012-08-22T06:57:50Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > A recent [New Yorker article](http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/05/28/120528crat_atlarge_krystal) that may be of interest. For anybody who’s read that article, what’re the sentences that begin with ‘Mentions’ doing there? I’m quite hungover, so that may have somthing to do with my lack of comprehension, but I don’t think they fit. Relevant half of the article quoted below > [@](#): > > If you were good, you could find a booster among the literati. Indeed, scores of novelists in a variety of genres—P. D. James, John le Carré, Donald Westlake, Dennis Lehane—routinely receive glowing writeups in major newspapers and literary venues. In 1995, Martin Amis dubbed Elmore Leonard “a literary genius who writes re-readable thrillers.” Skilled genre writers know that a certain level of artificiality must prevail. It’s plot we want and plenty of it. Basically, a guilty pleasure is a fix in the form of a story. **Mentions Edgar Rice Burroughs’s “Tarzan of the Apes.” The guilty-pleasure label peels off more easily if we recall that the novel itself was once something of a guilty pleasure. Hence Dickens was considered by many of his contemporaries to be more of a sentimentalist and a caricaturist than a serious artist. Mentions George Orwell. Today, the literary climate has changed: the canon has been impeached, formerly neglected writers have been saluted, and the presumed superiority of one type of book over another no longer passes unquestioned. So when Terrence Rafferty, in the Times Book Review last year, expressed disappointment with a novel that tried and failed to transcend the limitations of its genre, he caught some flak. Mentions Ursula K. Le Guin, Lee Child, Harold Bloom, and Stephen King. Compares Agatha Christie’s “Murder on the Orient Express” with Ford Madox Ford’s “Parade’s End.”** Christie’s language wants us to settle in; Ford’s demands that we pay attention. The typical genre writer keeps rhetorical flourishes to a minimum, and the typical reader is content to let him. Readers who require more must look either to other kinds of novels or to those > > Read more [http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/05/28/120528crat\_atlarge\_krystal#ixzz24FuVsTsA](http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/05/28/120528crat_atlarge_krystal#ixzz24FuVsTsA) ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/34 "2012-08-22T12:30:45Z")
> [@Antigen](#): > > I’m a book snob. > > I’m not proud of it, but I judge non-readers pretty harshly. There are people out there who say things like “I don’t read”, and _they don’t seem to think that it’s a serious hole in their lives_, which I cannot grok. I wouldn’t worry about it. Many people have their own little snobbish quirks. I, for instance, stopped reading your post and immediately thought less highly of you because of your use of the last word in the quoted passage. C’est la vie. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/35 "2012-08-22T13:11:42Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > For anybody who’s read that article, what’re the sentences that begin with ‘Mentions’ doing there? It’s just an abstract summarizing the full article (which is available to subscribers online) - I assume the abstract lists authors “mentioned” within the article to assist searching. ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/36 "2012-08-22T13:21:32Z")
Becoming a librarian, and working the reference desk (even in an academic library) relieved me of any booksnobbery I may have been carrying. Much like [Buffy/Whedon Studies](http://slayageonline.com/), there has been [a](http://gilfind.gsu.edu/vufind/Record/2207936) [whole](http://gilfind.gsu.edu/vufind/Record/2107334) [lot](http://gilfind.gsu.edu/vufind/Record/2248733) [of](http://gilfind.gsu.edu/vufind/Record/2088026) [academic](http://gilfind.gsu.edu/vufind/Record/2246496) [writing](http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=Twilight&as_epq=stephenie+meyer&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=-meyer&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C11) about the Twilight series. Students and faculty research any number of things that some people think are silly - things like YA, Science Fiction, Fantasy, Harlequins, [pornography](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0099133303001393) and all kinds of subgenres within those. I never know why someone is asking me for help finding books or articles of a specific type, and unless they volunteer that info, I’m unlikely to know. I don’t blame you for booksnobbery - I understand it and have been there, but we all have our things that we are judgy about, so while I disagree with it, what I say isn’t going to change you, and that doesn’t bother me at all. ---
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/37 "2012-08-22T13:48:57Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > Perhaps the self-identified snobs here will correct me, but I have this awful image in my head when I think of a “book snob.” Maybe for you, it just means reading complex books. For me, it’s a much more aggressive vision. I picture the Russian scientist glasses with the turtleneck sweater, flags sticking out of an old worn copy of The Dubliners (with the really good parts highlighted), and a shelf full of books newly translated from Urdu and Zulu. Kind of this weird English PhD/Hipster. > > “The breadpan was symbolizing her vagina! God, how fucking dense are you? It would have made sense if you had read some Zizek.” LOL! This took me right back to comp lit classes in grad school. That is exactly what the avant-garde lit classes were all about. I’m a fairly omnivorous reader…I have my favorite types of fiction, but I read beyond the boundaries, including some YA. I prefer a work with well-developed characters that tells a good story, with some thematic depth. I also prefer Dom Perignon champagne and tender steak and stuffed artichokes for dinner. However, if the story is really compelling, I’ll put up with weak characters, or if the characters are well done and the themes are compelling, I’ll put up with a weaker plot. The same way that most of the time I’ll eat stir-fried veggies with with a glass of water, or pizza with beer. Or, sometimes, just a bowl of buttered popcorn. Since I read a variety of fiction, based on moods, time, and energy, and don’t want anyone to judge me for it, I am willing to grant everyone else the same. ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/38 "2012-08-22T13:52:50Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I have to ask, have you read _Twilight, Hunger Games_, or _50 Shades of Gray_? > > I notice that you have trashed three very popular books that are generally considered of questionable “literary” merit. But that is like trashing an action movie for being weak on character development - that wasn’t the goal. These three books - from what I’ve heard - are about acknowledging visceral fears. _Twilight_ in particular seems to address everything a girl on the edge of adulthood would fear. > > Okay, I haven’t read them, either, and I probably won’t. But this is about you. > > You seem to be judging people on a single event, about which you are uninformed. There are some ugly words for that. > > The popularity seems to be an issue with you. Could it be what you really so snobbish about is that? Point taken. And I know there are ugly words to describe me, which is why I’m annoyed by my own attitude. I haven’t read Twilight or 50 Shades, mostly because I’ve heard enough about them and read enough reviews and quotes from them to know that they won’t be to my taste. Hunger Games, on the other hand, is being recommended to me from all sides, by people I know and whose opinions I usually trust, and that’s a big reason why I started this thread. I \*really \*don’t want to read the books, and I’m not entirely sure what my resistance is about. I’m not the hipster type who avoids things when they get popular, so what is it? I thought maybe it was the YA label that was doing it, but I’m not sure, given that I do count some children’s classics among my favorite books. Maybe I’m guilty of lumping Hunger Games into the same category as Twilight, when it belongs elsewhere? > [@Becky2844](#): > > If I disliked people who don’t read, I’d miss out on getting to know most of the people on earth. It’s not that I dislike them, it’s that I don’t understand them, and I feel a little sorry for them. But the more I think about it, I feel sorry for the fact that they don’t branch out and try reading other, better, things… and I’m committing the same offense when I paint all “fluff” with the same brush. ---
**Author:** ![yellowval](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/919ad9/32.png) [@yellowval](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowval)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/39 "2012-08-22T14:11:38Z")
I have struggled with booksnobbery myself but have recently begun to see things differently. Mine isn’t so much an issue with non-readers—I’m married to one of those—but with my idea of junk, such as Twilight and Fifty Shades (I don’t lump Hunger Games in with them). The thing about non-readers is that it’s silly to try to push them into doing something they hate. Chances are, some of them have only read books because they were forced to do so, and therefore see reading as a chore, not as a form of enjoyment. That’s sad, and honestly, if it takes Fifty Shades of Mommy Porn to get them to see reading as enjoyable, I think that’s great. There’s that, and the fact that just because they’re not reading books doesn’t mean they’re not reading. My husband the non-reader of books is always reading magazines or something or another online. He can sit and research something for hours online but won’t pick up a book. It’s just not his thing. I personally read a lot of literature but I’ve also read the Hunger Games. I’ve gotten to the point in my life where I feel that life is just too short to waste time reading things I don’t like. I had Moby Dick on my to-read list for a long time but finally took it off. Why force myself to read Moby Dick if I’m pretty sure I won’t like it? So I can say I read it and feel superior to those who haven’t? So while I’ll never give up reading literature, I’ve been trying to be a little easier on myself and let myself read just for fun. And I’m trying to turn up my nose less at those who rave about Fifty Shades being the best thing ever written, even though it is really hard for me. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196/40 "2012-08-22T14:35:00Z")
Well said, **yellowval**. Almost every person I know and love is a non-reader, and I think a lot of them were driven away from it by being forced to read things they didn’t like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/booksnobbery/632196.md?page=3)