# BOOM! Shot in the Kevlar: How effective? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819 "2010-03-18T00:31:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/21 "2010-03-18T18:11:44Z")
It still hurts like hell. I’ve seen you tube videos of reporters foolishly testing a vest. They usually scream and start cursing. The guy that played Eddie Haskell (Leave it to Beaver) was a LA Patrol Officer. He took a hit closeup. The vest stopped the bullet. But, he had a bad compressive impact wound. Made a big wound that put him in the hospital. > [@](#): > > During his time on the force, he worked in vice, in narcotics and as a motorcycle officer. He grew a mustache to help secure his anonymity. He was placed on disability and eventually retired after getting hit with three bullets[citation needed] while in a foot chase with a suspected car thief. He was saved by his bulletproof vest and belt buckle. He still earns a medical disability pension from the LAPD. > **[Ken Osmond](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Osmond)** > > Kenneth Charles Osmond (June 7, 1943 – May 18, 2020) was an American actor and police officer. Beginning a career as a child actor at the age of four, Osmond played the role of Eddie Haskell on the late 1950s to early 1960s television situation comedy Leave It to Beaver and reprised it on the 1980s revival series The New Leave It to Beaver. Typecast by the role, he found it hard to get other acting work and became a Los Angeles police officer. After retiring from police work, he resumed his act... ---
**Author:** ![hdc\_bst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9f8e36/32.png) [@hdc\_bst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hdc_bst)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/22 "2010-03-18T18:29:27Z")
BOOM! Shot in the SAPI plate ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA6rC\_WYBGM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA6rC_WYBGM)) can be quite effective. These are the inserts for the kevlar + ceramic armor referenced by **thelurkinghorror**. One friend with first hand experience was knocked on his butt, but otherwise unscathed. The let him keep the plate as a nice memento. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/23 "2010-03-18T18:42:29Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > So what is the purpose of coated bullets? IIRC, the original teflon rounds were developed by police officers to penetrate car windshields. Apparently the steep slope of a windshield combined with acrylic layers in the windshield, caused most regular pistol bullets to either bounce off or be trapped in the deforming acrylic layers underneath. The bullet had a saw tooth hollowpoint intended to grip and drill through the windshield while the teflon coating decreased the resistance. Frankly, I doubt how useful such a round would be except for road blocks. Against ordinary targets, it would tend to punch through and endanger civilians down range. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/24 "2010-03-18T18:52:54Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Rifle rounds will penetrate a vest better than handgun rounds simply because a rifle cartridge has at least twice the velocity and a lot more energy (KE = mv^2), all things being equal. Bullet shape has very little to do with it, because every type of round (other than armor piercing rounds) starts deforming the instant it hits. This isn’t entirely true. Small caliber rounds are often more effective because they can force the fibers apart without breaking them. The ultimate version of this is the ice pick. Police and correction officer vests have specific tests for ice pick and stabbing weapons. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic\_vest#Early\_.E2.80.9CIce\_Pick.E2.80.9D\_test](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest#Early_.E2.80.9CIce_Pick.E2.80.9D_test) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bb73d2/32.png) [@Evil\_Jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Jon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/25 "2010-03-18T19:08:34Z")
Video of US soldier getting shot in vest: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV0pN-LaW6E](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV0pN-LaW6E) He’s wearing “interceptor” armor and gets shot by what I assume is an Ak-47 variant. AK’s fire middle of the road size rounds, in between pistol and rifle. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/26 "2010-03-19T00:17:10Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > This isn’t entirely true. Small caliber rounds are often more effective because they can force the fibers apart without breaking them. The ultimate version of this is the ice pick. Police and correction officer vests have specific tests for ice pick and stabbing weapons. > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic\_vest#Early\_.E2.80.9CIce\_Pick.E2.80.9D\_test](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest#Early_.E2.80.9CIce_Pick.E2.80.9D_test) Do you have a cite for this applying to bullets? The problem is that bullets are a lot softer and don’t maintain a pointy shape long enough to push anything our of the way, and the impulse for a stabbing weapon is a lot longer. It would be interesting if true, but I’ve not heard of this. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/27 "2010-03-19T00:25:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Jon](#): > > He’s wearing “interceptor” armor and gets shot by what I assume is an Ak-47 variant. AK’s fire middle of the road size rounds, in between pistol and rifle. Also, the AK-47 (or more likely an AK-74) fires rifle rounds that are comparable to our own 5.56mm rounds, a little lighter and a bit faster. The military design ammo also has a steel penetrator inside. An older AK shoots a bigger 7.62 round. It’s well into the category of rifle. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/28 "2010-03-19T01:48:38Z")
If you’ll excuse the hijack, I always take the opportunity in these threads to stress the fact that a Kevlar flak jacket won’t defend against stabbing with a sharp instrument. A friend of my sister died demonstrating this fact. Since it sounds like a UL, naturally you’ll want a source for that, and [here it is](http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=348&dat=19970109&id=1WcwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=oTMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6931,2270930). One of the saddest stories I’ve heard of youth and foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/29 "2010-03-19T03:11:01Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Also, the AK-47 (or more likely an AK-74) fires rifle rounds that are comparable to our own 5.56mm rounds, a little lighter and a bit faster. The military design ammo also has a steel penetrator inside. An older AK shoots a bigger 7.62 round. It’s well into the category of rifle. The AK-47 is a 7.62mm weapon; the AK-74 is a 5.45mm weapon. Both are, by any definition, rifles, and their ammunition is nothing at all like pistol rounds. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/30 "2010-03-19T15:19:17Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Do you have a cite for this applying to bullets? The problem is that bullets are a lot softer and don’t maintain a pointy shape long enough to push anything our of the way, and the impulse for a stabbing weapon is a lot longer. > > It would be interesting if true, but I’ve not heard of this. Wikipedia says a 7.62x25mm Tokarev will defeat a level II vest. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x25mm\_Tokarev](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x25mm_Tokarev) I’ve also seen anecdotal evidence claiming that .17 HMR can defeat a vest, but that is a rifle round, so it has a very high muzzle velocity and a pointy tip. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/31 "2010-03-19T15:59:43Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’ve seen you tube videos of reporters foolishly testing a vest. They usually scream and start cursing. hehe. The people who post you-tube videos of themselves getting pepper sprayed act the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/32 "2010-03-19T21:05:21Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > IIRC, the original teflon rounds were developed by police officers to penetrate car windshields. Apparently the steep slope of a windshield combined with acrylic layers in the windshield, caused most regular pistol bullets to either bounce off or be trapped in the deforming acrylic layers underneath. The bullet had a saw tooth hollowpoint intended to grip and drill through the windshield while the teflon coating decreased the resistance. > > Frankly, I doubt how useful such a round would be except for road blocks. Against ordinary targets, it would tend to punch through and endanger civilians down range. Huh! I’d always, ALWAYS heard of coated bullets as intended to defeat bullet-resistant vests. Are they in fact effective in that capacity? (I do gather the coating isn’t what’s relevent but the penetrating core). ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/33 "2010-03-19T21:14:54Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Wikipedia says a 7.62x25mm Tokarev will defeat a level II vest. > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x25mm\_Tokarev](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x25mm_Tokarev) > > I’ve also seen anecdotal evidence claiming that .17 HMR can defeat a vest, but that is a rifle round, so it has a very high muzzle velocity and a pointy tip. Ok, but that isn’t what I am asking about. The theory you provided was that pointer, small bullets are better at penetrating kevlar than rounder bullets because they push the fibers out of the way. For the reasons I stated above, namely that bullets deform rather quickly and have a much shorter impulse than a stabbing weapon, your theory seems unlikely. I’m just saying that I am pretty sure that pointy doesn’t help with anything – penetration is all about energy and hardness (a steel penetrator will do better than lead). **Lumpy** : yes, the teflon bullet for armor piercing is a great example of how common knowledge is often wrong. The cop-killer teflon bullet business was picked up on by the media, and so that’s what people remember. Unfortunately, it was just poor reporting, and isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/34 "2010-03-20T21:50:39Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Ok, but that isn’t what I am asking about. The theory you provided was that pointer, small bullets are better at penetrating kevlar than rounder bullets because they push the fibers out of the way. > > For the reasons I stated above, namely that bullets deform rather quickly and have a much shorter impulse than a stabbing weapon, your theory seems unlikely. I’m just saying that I am pretty sure that pointy doesn’t help with anything – penetration is all about energy and hardness (a steel penetrator will do better than lead). This article says that some version of the 4.6x30mm will defeat ballistic vests. With a steel core and FMJ, it is only going to deform slightly when it hits target. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.6x30mm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.6x30mm) The H&K UCP is actually chambered for this round. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler\_%26\_Koch\_UCP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_UCP) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819/35 "2010-03-20T23:31:39Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > hehe. The people who post you-tube videos of themselves getting pepper sprayed act the same way. One of our Chief Constables over here in the U.K. (Manchester I think but could be wrong)volunteered to be filmed being Tasered . When police forces decided that they would be adopting the device all the bleeding heart do gooders started whining and crying about how some criminals might get hurt. He said it was a bloody unpleasant experience and I must admit he didn’t look very dignified on film, but he did do it for the right reasons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boom-shot-in-the-kevlar-how-effective/532819.md?page=1)