# Born Alive Infant Protection Act **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382 "2013-08-16T03:12:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/21 "2013-08-16T09:30:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Let me ask you a simple yes or no question: Do you believe fetuses that survive an abortion are entitled to protection under the law like any other newborn? Only if they have a valid photo ID. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/22 "2013-08-16T11:28:11Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Do you believe fetuses that survive an abortion are entitled to protection under the law like any other newborn? I thought they already were. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/23 "2013-08-16T11:52:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I thought they already were. Indeed–how otherwise was Kermit the Killer convicted of murder? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/24 "2013-08-16T15:36:24Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And some culture thought it okay to practise cannibalism or human sacrifices or raping and pillaging during war. Are these all cultural beliefs? Yes. _ **All** _ morality is cultural beliefs. That’s why morals vary by culture. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/25 "2013-08-16T15:46:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What happens if the ejected fetus is not viable, which is at least not unlikely, given that the process is not designed to be supportive of it. Wouldn’t this simply prompt the VERY FEW late term abortion procedures to include an early step involving chemical or physical intervention to prevent viability? In turn, doesn’t this entail complicating the procedure without full medical necessity? > > But, okay, fine: stick a needle through it first. What’s the damn difference? If the fetus is not viable, it should be given comfort care. If it is, it should be sent to the NICU. Whether the mother should be notified of this is something I’ll leave to people who know more about this stuff than I do; my guess is that she would want the baby adopted. I’ve heard stories about doctors who drowned babies that survived abortion procedures, and would DEFINITELY not advocate that. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/26 "2013-08-16T15:48:38Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > A while back I read an article commenting on how [“The Abortion Rights Community Has Become the NRA of the Left”](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/06/abortion-rights-community-has-become-the-nra-of-the-left.html) and I think that is a pretty apt comparison. Just like there are extremist gun advocates who will defend the right of a mentally unstable loner to buy an AK-47 on demand, there is an extremist element of the abortion industry who will defend killing viable, born infants because they think any kind of regulation of abortion means you hate women. This was how we ended up with Kermit Gosnell. :mad: I never found myself in a situation where I might have considered an abortion, but I got pilloried on another website for saying that if I had, I would have wanted it done in a hospital, not a storefront clinic. :rolleyes: One person said, “You do know that it would cost 10 times as much, don’t you?” and I replied, “Yes, and I would have been willing to pay it for the extra safety factor.” I’ve also been criticized for stating that pre-abortion sonograms are often a good idea. No, I don’t think they should be mandatory, but if there is ANY doubt about the age of the pregnancy, it should be done for the safety of the mother. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/27 "2013-08-16T17:26:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > If people really wanted to stop deaths of Babies (rather than score political points on abortion) they would call for universal free maternity care. The US has a worse perinatal mortality rate than Cuba. In Canada where there is provision for maternity and perinatal care for all, the rate is even lower. If the US had a fair health care system, say like Canada, 8000 children per year who currently die in the US would survive. > > It seems that babies at threat of abortion are far more important than babies at risk from the US health care system. This is nonsense. Even the OECD states that comparisons between many countries cannot be made. Many countries do not count a birth as a “live birth” if the infant is under a certain weight, length, or is only alive for a few minutes. The US counts a birth as a “live birth” if any sign of life is detected…regardless of prematurity (one heartbeat, one breath, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/28 "2013-08-16T17:34:31Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And some culture thought it okay to practise cannibalism or human sacrifices or raping and pillaging during war. Are these all cultural beliefs? I would never condone cannibalism, human sacrifice, or rape. But I can’t get too worked up over a lil pillaging. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/29 "2013-08-16T19:58:47Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > This is nonsense. Even the OECD states that comparisons between many countries cannot be made. Many countries do not count a birth as a “live birth” if the infant is under a certain weight, length, or is only alive for a few minutes. The US counts a birth as a “live birth” if any sign of life is detected…regardless of prematurity (one heartbeat, one breath, etc.). Our [infant mortality](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html) is worse than Canada, the E.U., Australia, New Zealand, Israel, and Japan, among other places. Likewise our [life expectancy](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html). Does this all stem from different definitions? If so, why do we define public health terms differently than the rest of the first world? That said, “It’s my body!” totally fails as an argument for a woman’s right to choose, once the baby’s not in her body. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/30 "2013-08-16T20:49:58Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Why would you want to do that? See below… > [@lavenderviolet](#): > > . . . Occasionally in late term abortions, the infant is born before it can be killed while still in the uterus. . . . I have no idea how often this happens. I’m guessing not very often. But this is why procedures might be altered, so as to provide a higher probability of an abortion, and a lower probability of a birth. The patient came in for one, and not the other. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/31 "2013-08-16T21:04:54Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I have no idea how often this happens. I’m guessing not very often. Pretty much never, given how rare late term abortions how and that they are performed either to save the woman or because the fetus is nonviable. That could in fact be one of the ideas behind these laws; when the nonviable fetus dies they can then accuse the doctor and mother of murder. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/32 "2013-08-16T21:05:30Z")
What act does the Born Alive Infant Protection Act prohibit that is not covered by existing statute on murder? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/33 "2013-08-16T22:53:27Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Our [infant mortality](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html) is worse than Canada, the E.U., Australia, New Zealand, Israel, and Japan, among other places. Likewise our [life expectancy](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html). Does this all stem from different definitions? If so, why do we define public health terms differently than the rest of the first world? We don’t do it differently from the rest of the world. Each country has its own guidelines on what is cosidered an infant mortality case and what is not. We follow the WHO definition of “live birth”. Some countries may not report very premature babies as a live birth, while others don’t count severely malformed babies that die shortly after birth to be a live birth. Some countries don’t count babies that don’t live more than 24 hours, etc. If you look at the WHO Neonatal and Perinatal Mortality report you’ll see the US is not in the range of 3rd world countries as many would have you belive ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/34 "2013-08-16T23:00:58Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What act does the Born Alive Infant Protection Act prohibit that is not covered by existing statute on murder? None, but it does provide another club for battering women who choose to be used as breeders. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/35 "2013-08-16T23:07:19Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What act does the Born Alive Infant Protection Act prohibit that is not covered by existing statute on murder? A solution in search of a problem, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/36 "2013-08-17T00:04:56Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504652/Gianna-Jessen-was-aborted-at-7-months.-She-survived.-Astonishingly-she-has-forgiven-her-mother-for-trying-to-kill-her..html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504652/Gianna-Jessen-was-aborted-at-7-months.-She-survived.-Astonishingly-she-has-forgiven-her-mother-for-trying-to-kill-her..html) > > [Index of /press](http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=22518) > [@lavenderviolet](#): > > [Gianna Jessen](http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/gianna-jessen/) is a fairly famous example of someone who was meant to be aborted but managed to survive. > One prominent example of this situation was when [url=[Abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell found guilty of murder | Philadelphia | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/13/kermit-gosnell-found-guilty-murder)]. Thanks for your answers. I knew about the Gosnell case, but hadn’t considered that when I read the OP. I had thought only of “regular” abortions performed in an hospital. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/37 "2013-08-17T00:11:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I have no idea how often this happens. I’m guessing not very often. But this is why procedures might be altered, so as to provide a higher probability of an abortion, and a lower probability of a birth. The patient came in for one, and not the other. Again, why? The pregnancy ends, whether or not the fetus survives, doesn’t it? So, the patient got what she wanted in any case. Why would one want to make sure that the fetus can’t possibly survives the procedure? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/38 "2013-08-17T00:19:04Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Again, why? The pregnancy ends, whether or not the fetus survives, doesn’t it? So, the patient got what she wanted in any case. Why would one want to make sure that the fetus can’t possibly survives the procedure? Because she’d have to pay for it, and probably the resulting baby will die horribly anyway given the typical reasons for a late term pregnancy. Making sure it survives just so it can die a slower, more painful death is disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/39 "2013-08-17T19:03:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because she’d have to pay for it, and probably the resulting baby will die horribly anyway given the typical reasons for a late term pregnancy. Making sure it survives just so it can die a slower, more painful death is disgusting. She wouldn’t necessecarily have to pay for it. She could abandon the kid. And we’re talking about a surviving baby. I’m not sure why it should be treated differently from any other premature baby. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382/40 "2013-08-17T19:22:56Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > She wouldn’t necessecarily have to pay for it. She could abandon the kid. And we’re talking about a surviving baby. I’m not sure why it should be treated differently from any other premature baby. Parents of very premature babies are often offered the option of not providing care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-alive-infant-protection-act/666382.md?page=3)