# "Born In The U.S.A." **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 12, 2001, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119 "2001-09-12T18:21:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2001, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/41 "2001-09-13T15:35:19Z")
Gee, Eonwe; let’s look at this comment above then: > [@](#): > > He’s not saying he’s better than the maybe 500 people ever who were born outside the US and are in the military; he’s saying he deserves to at least be treated like a regular American. Both aircraft carriers on which I served had more foreign-born Sailors than that each. And that was more than 500 at one time on one ship! Yet, jm has the audacity, nay the gall, to say “maybe 500 people ever.” The actual number is “hundreds and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, ever.” I am also especially zeroing in on the comment “treated like a regular American.” Seems to me that ol’ jm doesn’t think those of us foreign-born folks are “regular” Americans. Granted, the protagonist in the song was abandoned after serving the country, but then again, so were many foreign-born Service Members who served at the very same time. And that’s more than 500 folks. Now do you see? Regarding jm’s latest comment: Note to Unca Cece - time to change the site logo - should say “Ain’t never gonna freaking happen.” ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2001, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/42 "2001-09-13T16:15:49Z")
**Monty** , I’m with you for most of that. I also felt that **jmonster** ’s statement of “maybe 500 people ever” was a little odd, but I assume that he said it because of an honest misconception of the number of foreign-born service persons. As far as the song goes, I’m just saying that it deserves a little poetic liscense. The point of the song is that “I am an American and I got screwed” and is _not_, “I was born in America and deserve more than those who weren’t.” But, as I said before, I can understand how the song might bother you or others. ---
**Author:** ![jmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmonster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2001, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/43 "2001-09-13T17:02:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Gee, Eonwe; let’s look at this comment above then: > > > [@](#): > > > > He’s not saying he’s better than the maybe 500 people ever who were born outside the US and are in the military; he’s saying he deserves to at least be treated like a regular American. > > Both aircraft carriers on which I served had more foreign-born Sailors than that each. And that was more than 500 at one time on one ship! > > Yet, jm has the audacity, nay the gall, to say “maybe 500 people ever.” The actual number is “hundreds and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, ever.” > > I am also especially zeroing in on the comment “treated like a regular American.” Seems to me that ol’ jm doesn’t think those of us foreign-born folks are “regular” Americans. Granted, the protagonist in the song was abandoned after serving the country, but then again, so were many foreign-born Service Members who served at the very same time. And that’s more than 500 folks. > > Now do you see? > > Regarding jm’s latest comment: Note to Unca Cece - time to change the site logo - should say “Ain’t never gonna freaking happen.” \*\* You’re making an awful lot of self-rightous assumptions here, **Monty**. Nobody thinks that children born to American citizens travelling abroad are anything less than real Americans. And only ignorant, hypocritical racists think that naturalized citizens are inferior to domestic born citizens. We all know that approximately 100% of Americans have ancestors that immigrated here in that last 500 years. My great-grandfather Jens came here from Denmark and became a state trooper. I consider the physical birthplace of a citizen such a non-issue that I may have underestimated the number of foreign-born American military personnel. But you know what? Most people don’t really care. We don’t dislike you and we don’t mistrust you. Regular = got citizenship the way **most** people do. That’s what “regular” means. That doesn’t mean you’re bad, it’s just a way of categorizing citizenship. Notice that you, a child born an illegal Mexican immigrant, and my great-grandfather are all **citizens**. It’s not like we think you’re evil foreigners. The point: “Born in the USA” is a great song with a very important message. I think it’s despicably petty of you to complain about it. Bruce’s song is about one fictional character that is drawn from the actual experiences of a hell of a lot of young guys that were supposed to be war heros. Don’t like it? Write your own song, but I can tell you that “Naturalized in the USA” may be slightly more inclusive, but a lot less forceful. Is anybody mad that “Deportee” doesn’t represent all the American citizens that work in poverty? No. Is Steve Earle’s “Taneytown” a crappy song because white and Latino people can be falsely accused of murder, too? No. Is “When a Man Loves a Woman” blatenly homophobic? No. ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2001, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/44 "2001-09-13T17:51:49Z")
Another couple of misunderstood songs are **The one I love** which is commonly thought to be a love song but is actually a callous dismissal of a former lover and **Strange Currencies** which my ex girlfriend thought was a love song until I told her it was actually about a stalker same as **Every breath you take**. > [@](#): > > _The one I love_ > This one goes out to the one I love > This one goes out to the one I’ve left behind > A simple prop to occupy my time > This one goes out to the one I love > > Fire (she’s comin’ down on her own, now) > > This one goes out to the one I love > This one goes out to the one I’ve left behind > Another prop has occupied my time > This one goes out to the one I love > [@](#): > > _Strange Currencies_ > I don’t know why you’re mean to me > when I call on the telephone. > and I don’t know what you mean to me > but I want to turn you on, turn you up, figure you out, I want to take you on > > These words, “You will be mine.” > These words, “You will be mine.” all the time. > > though fool might be my middle name > But I’d be foolish not to say > I’m going to make whatever it takes, > ring you up, call you down, sign your name, secret love, > make it rhyme, take you in, and make you mine. > > These words, “You will be mine.” > These words, “You will be mine.” all the time. oh > > I tripped and fell. did I fall. > What I want to feel, I want to feel it now > > You know with love come strange currencies > and here is my appeal: > > I need a chance, a second chance, a third chance, a fourth chance, > a word, a signal, a nod, a little breath > just to fool myself, to catch myself, to make it real, real > > These words, “You will be mine” > These words, “You will be mine.” all the time. oh > > These words, “You will be mine.” > These words, they haunt me, hunt me down, catch in my throat, make me pray, > say, love’s confined, oh. Oh, and thanks for ruining **When a man loves a woman** for me guys 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2001, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/45 "2001-09-13T19:18:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmonster \* > You’re making an awful lot of self-rightous assumptions here, **Monty**. No. I believe I am on point. > [@](#): > > I consider the physical birthplace of a citizen such a non-issue that I may have underestimated the number of foreign-born American military personnel. And you are still missing the point that the United States Armed Forces have a good number of foreign nationals in uniform and also a good number of naturalized citizens who, in case you forgot what you just typed above yet again, were not born in the US nor were they born to US citizens oveseas. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2001, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/46 "2001-09-13T19:56:51Z")
“Wonderful Tonight” is really about a man agonizing about how long it takes his wife to get dressed to go out, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![jmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmonster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2001, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/47 "2001-09-13T19:57:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > And you are still missing the point that the United States Armed Forces have a good number of foreign nationals in uniform and also a good number of naturalized citizens who, in case you forgot what you just typed above yet again, were not born in the US nor were they born to US citizens oveseas. And you’re missing the point that the song is not about you and your military service. There are a lot of songs that don’t capture the nuance of my particular life experiences and yet, I can still recognize them for the great songs that they are and sympathize with the people whose life experiences they do encapsulate. As others have said, Bruce is not **proud** that he was born in the USA or deriding you foreigners. He’s whining that they should at least treat him like a citizen (since he is one by virtue of birthplace). ---
**Author:** ![Swede\_Hollow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Swede\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swede_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2001, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/48 "2001-09-13T20:07:36Z")
Originally Posted by **Monty** > [@](#): > > A better choice would be the one that has the refrain, “I would gladly stand up to defend her…” Y’all recall that one? That would be **Lee Greenwood** ’s _“God Bless the U.S.A.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2001, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/49 "2001-09-13T22:14:27Z")
bugg said: > [@](#): > > Another commonly misinterpreted song is American Woman by The Guess Who, as well as (although some people may disagree with me) Alice Cooper’s School’s Out- which talks about not having to go to school because it was lost to the war, NOT because he’s a rebellious punk. What do you mean misinterpreted about American Woman? Or is the misinterpretation that it is really about a woman? Not familiar enough with Alice Cooper to know about School’s Out. Swede Hollow said: > [@](#): > > I’ve always thought Bruce Springsteen was hard to understand. Since most people can’t make out what he was singing they jumped to conclusions based on they parts that they could understand. Yes, that’s certainly a contributor in some cases, especially Springsteen. I recall seeing one of the MTV Music Awards shows some years ago with Bob Dylan singing one of his hits completely unintelligibly. I finally figured out which one it was by the music, but not a single word was intelligible. Then I later heard Springsteen slur through a song and remarked on how similar they sounded. > [@](#): > > (The same could explain Manfred Mann singing Bruce’s “Revved up like a deuce, another roller in the night” as “Rolled up like a douche, another runner in the night” from Blinded by the Light.) Eonwe replied: > [@](#): > > That song makes the least sense of almost any song I know, baring “Louie, Louie.” Although, the lyrics are printed in the album cover, so Manfred Mann had no excuse. Then again, his words make just as much sense as Bruce’s. See Cecil’s column. [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5\_148.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_148.html) VarlosZ said in RE Revolution: > [@](#): > > The Nike commercial not withstanding, I’ve never known anyone to interpret the song as a call for revolution; the lyrics seem clear enough and there’s no vague chorus to confuse people (a la “Born in the U.S.A.”). It would seem pretty clear to me, too, but I still hear it taken that way. > [@](#): > > What’s very subtle about the song is the line, “And if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao / You ain’t gonna make it with anyone anyhow.” Not a dig at Maoists, the line is actually telling people not to blow the revolution by scaring the “straights” with pictures of Mao, etc. He’s not bashing revolutionaries, just saying they’ve got to be more subtle. Interesting interpretation. I’ve always been too straightforward to see things like that. However, taken with the rest of the lyrics in context, it sure sounds like he’s bashing revolutionaries - at least the violent ones. You got some cite for the more subtle interpretation, or is that your own judgment? Monty said: > [@](#): > > Having been born outside the United States, I have always hated the “Born in the U.S.A.” song. To me it says that only those born in America are, or even can be, patriots. Since that’s obviously not true (I served in the US military for 20 years active duty and one reserve), I would prefer that I never hear that freaking song again. I can understand how you might get that impression, especially with the misinterpretation and how it is often misused. He does seem to be using the line to mean “I’m a full-fledged American”. > [@](#): > > An even better choice, given a lot of the anti-immigrant backlash over this tragedy, would be “America, the Beautiful.” Lot of people here need to practice the words of that song: “Crown thy good with brotherhood from sea to shining sea.” Well, except that song does have the ubiquitous god reference so prevalent in traditional patriotic songs. “God shed his grace on thee.” Us atheists get a little put out by that one, same as you get irked by the Springsteen above. “Every Breath You Take” can be taken on two levels. Originally I think the less literal interpretation was intended, but with stalkers becoming so publicized, that has taken lots of people’s minds. TwistofFate, “Wonderful Tonight” by Eric Clapton? Explain. Don’t know “Will you still love me tomorrow” by Carol King / The Ronnettes. Hell, I don’t know “In the Navy”, but catch the reference because it’s by The Village People. ElwoodCuse said: > [@](#): > > “Wonderful Tonight” is really about a man agonizing about how long it takes his wife to get dressed to go out, IIRC. The lyrics don’t support that. Only the first verse is about getting ready to go out. The second verse is at the party, and the third verse is coming home from the party. The whole thing seems to be him admiring her the whole night long, from dressing up pretty and going out to show her off till coming home and how she takes good care of him when he’s had too much to drink. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2001, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/50 "2001-09-13T23:25:49Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Since this seems to be a discussion of the most misunderstood songs, I’m moving it to IMHO. And please do not quote the full text of song lyrics; small excerpts or a link only. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/51 "2001-09-14T00:11:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Irishman \* > \*\* > What do you mean misinterpreted about American Woman? Or is the misinterpretation that it is really about a woman? \*\* The song is pretty anti-American and anti-American women, which seems obvious to me but apparently some people just don’t get it. A high-profile example of this would be the use of the song in the second “Austin Powers” movie, in the scene that introduced the heroine, an American agent played by Heather Graham. ---
**Author:** ![jaimest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@jaimest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaimest)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/52 "2001-09-14T00:31:58Z")
I think “Born in the USA” IS a patriotic song. But it’s not patriotic in the Lee Greenwood “Proud to be an American” sense. Yes the lyrics are an attack on the establishment, and on Reagan’s America. But they do celebrate the country in a way. But the chorus, to me, says that in spite of all the bullsh\*t ordinary people have to go through, there’s a pride. Not pride as in jingoism; but a sort of rugged and wounded pride. The lyrics and chorus are sort of meant to clash a bit with each other - not unlike the feelings of a lot of ordinary people who are disenchanted with politics, the economy, and society; yet remain patriotic no matter what. As for being titled “Born in the USA”, I don’t think its meant to be anti-ammigrant. (Some morons probably interpreted the title that way, and use that phrase to say they are “Real Americans”). I think the song is about people (specifically unemployed Vietnam veterans) who have invested their whole lives in something and seem to get so little in return. Digressing a bit, Willie Nelson’s “Promised Land”, always struck me as a good example of a patriotic and pro -immigrant song. Maybe I’m wrong there. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/53 "2001-09-14T04:55:15Z")
Reagan tried several times to co-opt Springsteen. Springsteen’s response that I’ve seen quoted was something like “The president says he’s a big fan of my music. I bet he hasn’t listened to ‘Nebraska’.” Springsteen later, during Bush I’s first campaign, said from stage at least once “Don’t vote for that fuckin’ Bush!” And speaking of Bush I and misunderstood music, I was utterly stunned when in 1992 he took the stage at the Republican National Convention to the strains of “The Best of Times is Now” from La Cage aux Folles. Someone was either completely clueless or some sister had quite a laugh at Bush’s expense. “In the Navy” was considered for use in Navy recruitment ads, but someone figured out prior to using it what it was really about. ---
**Author:** ![Fern\_Forest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71c47a/32.png) [@Fern\_Forest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fern_Forest)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/54 "2001-09-14T05:06:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElwoodCuse \* > \*\*“Wonderful Tonight” is really about a man agonizing about how long it takes his wife to get dressed to go out, IIRC. \*\* My first real laugh in awhile. Good one Elwood. ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/55 "2001-09-17T20:35:49Z")
Thought of one the other night… [“More Than Words” by Extreme](http://home.kamp.net/home/j13048/extreme.htm) I remember when this was out, everyone thought it was sooo romantic. I listened and got all the lyrics one day and it struck me… Isn’t he really saying “If you really loved me, you’d sleep with me?” _“Saying I love you Is not the words I want to hear from you”_ Then: _“How easy it would be to show me how you feel. More than words is all you have to do to make it real. Then you wouldn’t have to say that you love me, 'Cos I’d already know”_ Sounds an awful lot like “C’mon, baby. I need you to show me you love me…” ---
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/56 "2001-09-17T23:26:05Z")
Regarding “American Woman”: I’d heard that the “woman” in question is actually the Statue of Liberty. Listening to the lyrics (“I don’t need your war machines”, etc), they seem to support this conjecture. ---
**Author:** ![Rock-n-Rolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/22d042/32.png) [@Rock-n-Rolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rock-n-Rolga)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119/57 "2001-09-18T01:52:07Z")
“Keep on Rockin’ in the Free World” by Neil Young. Utterly _dripping_ with irony, and can’t even be interpreted as mildy patriotic in the odd, backhanded way that “Born in the U.S.A.” possibly could be. _Sigh_ People seem to only hear “rockin’” and “free” and ignore the mentions of “a warning sign”, our wasteful lifestyles and a baby being abandoned its drug-addicted mother. Selective hearing: the express lane to ignorance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/born-in-the-u-s-a/81119.md?page=2)