# Both a king and a queen **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 5, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348 "2013-02-05T01:09:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/21 "2013-02-05T05:57:06Z")
…which has me musing - what happens among the lower ranks of nobility, if a woman who holds a title in her own right marries. Is there a “general rule”? Do they get a title at all, or a lesser one? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/22 "2013-02-05T06:15:12Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > …which has me musing - what happens among the lower ranks of nobility, if a woman who holds a title in her own right marries. Is there a “general rule”? Do they get a title at all, or a lesser one? In Britain, the husband of a titled woman gets no title whatsoever from marriage. (That’s true at all levels there. Prince Philip has no titles or styles that result directly from his being married to the Queen. Obviously he wouldn’t have been given a dukedom had he not married the heiress nearly apparent in 1947, but he still holds it in his own right.) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/23 "2013-02-05T07:20:54Z")
Kings David, Solomon, and others of that era had whole bunches of wives. What was the protocol in those days for how those wives were styled? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/24 "2013-02-05T07:43:30Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > A king outranks a queen so that is why the consort of a Queen Regnant will not usually take the title of ‘King’. And part of the reason why [Queen Jadwiga](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadwiga_of_Poland) was crowned as ‘King of Poland’, though she was in fact a nearly powerless pawn. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/25 "2013-02-05T08:55:02Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > Some real monarchies have both at the moment - for example, King Gustaf and Queen Sylvia of Sweden. Their names are Carl Gustaf and Silvia. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/26 "2013-02-05T10:22:58Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > …which has me musing - what happens among the lower ranks of nobility, if a woman who holds a title in her own right marries. Is there a “general rule”? Do they get a title at all, or a lesser one? The woman will always use the superior title that she is entitled to use. So in Downton Abbey, when Lady Mary Crawley married Matthew Crawley , she became Lady Mary Crawley:dubious:. Okay bad example, but still she kept the title from her father. Same way when Lady Diana Spencer married the Prince of Wales, she became the Princess of Wales. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/27 "2013-02-05T12:48:41Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The woman will always use the superior title that she is entitled to use. So in Downton Abbey, when Lady Mary Crawley married Matthew Crawley , she became Lady Mary Crawley:dubious:. Okay bad example, but still she kept the title from her father. Lady Sarah Armstrong-Jones, the Queen’s niece, married Daniel Chatto and is now Lady Sarah Chatto. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/28 "2013-02-05T13:05:20Z")
[The Master speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1235/a-kings-wife-is-a-queen-so-why-is-elizabeth-iis-husband-still-only-prince-philip) on consorts vs. regnants. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/29 "2013-02-05T14:42:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Queen Sofía is both a great-great-granddaughter (paternally) and a great-great-great-granddaughter (maternally) of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom and is, through several lines, her husband’s third cousin. She is a first cousin of Ernst August of Hanover, and through her great-grandfather George I of Greece, she is a second cousin to Charles, Prince of Wales but also his fourth cousin through Queen Victoria, and a third cousin of Queen Elizabeth II through another line from Queen Victoria. Through Christian IX of Denmark and Queen Victoria, she is also related to Elizabeth II and thereby related to all the royal families of Europe. She is also a first cousin once removed of Elizabeth II’s husband, Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. Queen Sofia is of Hohenzollern descent through her mother, Frederica of Hanover, and through her paternal grandmother, Sophia of Prussia, and of Romanov descent through her father’s paternal grandmother, Olga Constantinovna of Russia. It would be hell to plan the menu for a family reunion cookout. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/30 "2013-02-05T15:07:36Z")
Now that the question’s been answered seriously: Did anyone else read the subject and read it as “what if the king turned out to be gay?” ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/31 "2013-02-05T19:01:07Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > Now that the question’s been answered seriously: Did anyone else read the subject and read it as “what if the king turned out to be gay?” In the UK, there are moves to allow a future gay monarch to have their partner styled king or queen consort, and for the biological children of the monarch (but not their partner) to be included in the rights of succession: [U.K.: Law Proposed to Accommodate a Gay King or Queen](http://www.advocate.com/news/world-news/2013/01/22/uk-law-proposed-accommodate-gay-king-or-queen) It’s only a proposal, but, given the length of time before it’s likely to have any effect (when Will and Kate’s kid succeeds to the throne in maybe fifty years), that it’s even being taken seriously now suggests a good chance it will be law by then. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/32 "2013-02-05T19:19:19Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > Now that the question’s been answered seriously: Did anyone else read the subject and read it as “what if the king turned out to be gay?” Although he married and fathered children, James VI of Sccots and I of England was widely regarded at the time to be somewhat effeminate and to have an eye for handsome young men for his ‘favourites’. Recalling Elizabeth’s famous address to the people, one wag commented, “Elizabeth was our king, and now James is our queen.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/33 "2013-02-05T21:25:40Z")
There’s always the case of Maria Theresa, who was King of Hungary (perhaps because Hungarian doesn’t have a feminine form for a ruling female?), but Archduchess of Austria and Empress of the HRE. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/34 "2013-02-05T21:32:24Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Kings David, Solomon, and others of that era had whole bunches of wives. What was the protocol in those days for how those wives were styled? Just the _ishah_ “woman; wife”; you might think there would already be a special word for “queen” but there wasn’t. In Anglo-Saxon, _cwen_ didn’t mean anything more than “woman; wife” either. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/35 "2013-02-05T21:34:21Z")
Queen Elizabeth II is also the Duke of Normandy, Duke of Lancaster and the Lord of Mann. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/36 "2013-02-05T23:13:06Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > Queen Elizabeth is married to Philip, but they don’t call him King Philip, just Prince Philip. I’m not sure if any country would call the spouse of a Queen regnant a King consort. I think the husband of a regnant Queen is either the King or the Prince Consort. Prince Albert, husband of regnant Queen Victoria, was His Royal Highness The Prince Consort. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/37 "2013-02-06T07:19:42Z")
> [@Bob\_X](#): > > … In Anglo-Saxon, _cwen_ didn’t mean anything more than “woman; wife” either. Before some trouble-maker shows up: No, _queen_ is NOT cognate to _wench_🆒 : > [@](#): > > wench (n.) > late 13c., wenche “girl or young woman,” shortened from wenchel “child” (12c.), from Old English wencel, probably related to wancol “unsteady, fickle, weak,” and cognate with Old Norse vakr “child, weak person,” Old High German wanchal “fickle.” The word degenerated through being used in reference to servant girls, and by mid-14c. was being used in a sense of “woman of loose morals, mistress.” > The wenche is nat dead, but slepith. [Wyclif, Matt. ix:24, c.1380] > > queen (n.) > Old English cwen “queen, female ruler of a state, woman, wife,” from Proto-Germanic \*kwoeniz, ablaut variant of \*kwenon (source of quean), from PIE \*gwen- “woman, wife” supposedly originally “honored woman” (cf. Greek gyné “a woman, a wife;” Gaelic bean “woman;” Sanskrit janis “a woman,” gná “wife of a god, a goddess;” Avestan jainish “wife;” Armenian kin “woman;” Old Church Slavonic zena, Old Prussian genna “woman;” Gothic qino "a woman, wife; qéns “a queen”). ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/38 "2013-02-06T07:55:49Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > There’s always the case of Maria Theresa, who was King of Hungary (perhaps because Hungarian doesn’t have a feminine form for a ruling female?), but Archduchess of Austria and Empress of the HRE. I think Hungarian was seperate words for queen-consort and queen-regant. The word for queen-regnant might just be the word for king with a feminine suffix on the end. And while Maria Theresa was Archducess of Austria and Queen of Hungary in her own right she was only the Holy Roman Empress by marriage; her husband was elected HRE and he delegate whatever authority he had to his wife. Then when he died her son was elected HRE, but had to wait until she died to have any real power. > [@cwthree](#): > > I think the husband of a regnant Queen is either the King or the Prince Consort. Prince Albert, husband of regnant Queen Victoria, was His Royal Highness The Prince Consort. Victoria wanted Albert to be made King-Consort, but her government was opposed to the idea. He didn’t want a peerage so she just made him a prince of the UK promoted him to “Royal Highness” (her was born His _Serene_ Highness Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha).. For the first 17 yrs of marriage he was “HRH Prince Albert”. It was the press that coined the phrase “prince consort” and Victoria formally granted him that style in 1857. He’s the only one; Queen Elizabeth II has never created her husband Prince Consort (her father created him Duke of Edinburgh on their wedding day). ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/39 "2013-02-06T15:52:04Z")
In my new favorite site, [Britroyals](http://www.britroyals.com/family.asp?id=william), they say differently of She-of-the-photographed-breasts, who will become Queen Catherine. Boo-boo? The site seems pretty serious. Also, I like the way they say “…if William _accedes_ to the throne.” (My italics.) ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348/40 "2013-02-06T16:06:52Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > In my new favorite site, [Britroyals](http://www.britroyals.com/family.asp?id=william) … (My italics.) I hadn’t realized – Prince William is 30. _Tempus fugit_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-a-king-and-a-queen/649348.md?page=3)