# Both Death Penalty and Abortion or Neither **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270 "2009-10-10T03:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/181 "2009-10-23T03:25:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > ETA: **Der Trihs** , I think he’s being sarcastic. Then he’d best say so, or use a smiley. What he said is no crazier or tyrannical than other things I’ve heard right wingers say. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/182 "2009-10-23T04:57:08Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Sigh, while I have some respect for people who are pro-choice because they’re certain that abortion is not murder, your type of moral relativists who’ll do whatever “works” is disgusting and almost wretched. You’re like the character Mr. Thompson or the other “Looters” from _Atlas Shrugged_. Calling the opposition “disgusting” and “almost wretched” isn’t an argument against their position. It’s just an irrelevant personal attack, based on nothing. Do you believe that the government should enforce laws that, on the whole, negatively affect society due to arbitrary “moral” definitions? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/183 "2009-10-23T05:28:05Z")
Give him a break, he’s a 13 year-old who’s just read Ayn Rand. Of course, so was I, but I had the benefit of being Canadian so while it shifted my politics to the right, that just means I ended up (by American standards) as a moderate. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/184 "2009-10-23T06:05:20Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Nah. There are plenty of people who believe that abortion is murder, but the abortion that they or their wives/girlfriends/daughters want is morally OK. [The only moral abortion is my abortion.](http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml) I took a look at the site, and this stuns me: “Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique – not like those “other” women – even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons.” People that truely beleive this must suffer from some sort of mental illness right? Is there any sort of clinical definition that could be applied (not hypocrit) to people that truely believe their quite unremarkable situation is unique and has never been experienced before. And just for the record, not that anyone’s taking a poll, but is it reasonable to be both anti-abortion (in general) and pro-choice? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/185 "2009-10-23T06:15:44Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > And just for the record, not that anyone’s taking a poll, but is it reasonable to be both anti-abortion (in general) and pro-choice? Sure, just as one could be pro-death penalty but anti-capital punishment, in the sense that while they have no personal moral problem with (and indeed hold a positive view toward) executing certain criminals, they’ve decided that implementing capital punishment is more hassle than its worth, with all the necessary safeguards dragging the process out for years and even then have the risk of error. I’d gladly personally pull the switch on a Paul Bernardo or Robert Pickton, but I’m opposed to Canada re-implementing capital punishment because if the American example is any guide, it’ll turn into such a huge clusterfuck that the short-term satisfaction would be meaningless in comparison. The abortion analog could be someone who has strong moral reservations to the point of considering abortion a self-evident evil, but also took the time to consider the impact of a ban. The OP of this thread shows no interest in putting in the effort. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/186 "2009-10-23T13:28:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So why can’t a fetus be a person whose continued existence is the choice of one other specific person, if we’re going to insist on personhood yet acknowledge it has nuances? What do we gain from this? ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/187 "2009-10-23T13:31:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Sigh, while I have some respect for people who are pro-choice because they’re certain that abortion is not murder, your type of moral relativists who’ll do whatever “works” is disgusting and almost wretched. You’re like the character Mr. Thompson or the other “Looters” from _Atlas Shrugged_. So you’re a Libertarian who does not think that a woman owns her own body, is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/188 "2009-10-23T13:43:08Z")
Pro-choice and pro-death penalty and both for the same reason: Nobody should have a right to use your body without your permission (and if you agree to let someone kill you, let me remind you that you cannot give permission for illegal acts). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/189 "2009-10-23T14:13:40Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Pro-choice and pro-death penalty and both for the same reason: Nobody should have a right to use your body without your permission (and if you agree to let someone kill you, let me remind you that you cannot give permission for illegal acts). Then the Curtis LeMays just have to outlaw abortion and you’ll be against abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/190 "2009-10-23T14:58:29Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > And just for the record, not that anyone’s taking a poll, but is it reasonable to be both anti-abortion (in general) and pro-choice? Sure. I would wager that most pro-choice people are anti-abortion - even if we find it ok morally speaking, that doesn’t mean it’s a fun old time for all. And, from the other side, there are people who find abortions morally bad, yet for practical or other reasons prefer some system of legal pro-choice. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/191 "2009-10-23T15:32:30Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Then the Curtis LeMays just have to outlaw abortion and you’ll be against abortion? No, but I would fight to have it made legal again. I definitely would NOT harass women seeking abortions, whetther legal or il-. The anti-abortions should be working at making abortion illegal again, if that is what they believe (and good luck with that). Harassing people seeking a legal act is just plain fucked-up. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/192 "2009-10-23T17:37:01Z")
> [@martu](#): > > What do we gain from this? Acknowledgement that even if the fetus is a person, it’s not the _only_ person involved. The ability of pro-lifers to completely forget the woman is quite astonishing. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/193 "2009-10-23T19:30:21Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > And just for the record, not that anyone’s taking a poll, but is it reasonable to be both anti-abortion (in general) and pro-choice? Of course. You may believe that abortion in and of itself is wrong, but feel that it is up to each person to decide for herself. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/194 "2009-10-23T19:39:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Acknowledgement that even if the fetus is a person, it’s not the _only_ person involved. The ability of pro-lifers to completely forget the woman is quite astonishing. I see your point. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/195 "2009-10-23T22:59:36Z")
I was being sarcastic about the monitoring comment. > [@Algorithm](#): > > Calling the opposition “disgusting” and “almost wretched” isn’t an argument against their position. It’s just an irrelevant personal attack, based on nothing. > > Do you believe that the government should enforce laws that, on the whole, negatively affect society due to arbitrary “moral” definitions? Why? I apologise. However yes I do believe in absolute morality so even if it is inefficient, expensive or otherwise I would support what I think is moral. For instance I would allow more refugees into the USA from other places. > [@martu](#): > > So you’re a Libertarian who does not think that a woman owns her own body, is that correct? I’m not Libertarian, I’m just using Rand as an example of people without any absolute moral barriers. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/196 "2009-10-24T02:38:49Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I would support what I think is moral. Key words being “what **I think** is moral.” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/197 "2009-10-24T02:54:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Key words being “what **I think** is moral.” Do I believe my opinions are the truth? Yes but so do you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/198 "2009-10-24T03:17:05Z")
But are your opinions open to reinterpretation or are you fairly locked into them? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/199 "2009-10-24T03:20:36Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Do I believe my opinions are the truth? Yes but so do you. But there’s a difference between and opinion and an informed opinion – and so far, you have yet to offer the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/200 "2009-10-24T04:01:06Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But there’s a difference between and opinion and an informed opinion – and so far, you have yet to offer the latter. It is informed from what I read of fetuses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=11)