# Both Death Penalty and Abortion or Neither **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270 "2009-10-10T03:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/361 "2009-11-04T03:39:31Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I do not wish to legalise murder. > > … > > It is a potential human. How do you feel about killing not-potential humans, i.e. actual humans who can walk and talk and stuff? Unacceptable under all conditions? Acceptable under _some_ conditions? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/362 "2009-11-04T05:41:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That is only a little bit after conception and it’s usually quite certain that will happen. Cite? Depending on where a woman is in her cycle, it very well could not. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/363 "2009-11-04T10:38:58Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’m just talking about personal responsibility. Having sex is not something like “Should I have hamburger or a chicken sandwich?”, it’s a very important decision of your life. Having sex is whatever the two (or more) people involved think it’s about. No more, no less. It’s certainly not \*your \*decision. Believe it or not, not everyone thinks it’s an amazing soul pact with God or some such crap. I personally think it’s two pieces of steak colliding. It’s not special, it’s not a miracle, it’s not a very important decision. The only people who go on about how deep a commitment it is, and make it a big responsibility, and won’t you think about the children, are people who don’t want other people to have sex. It works, too. Other people don’t have sex with them, ever. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/364 "2009-11-04T16:51:28Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > (snip) > > Look at Ireland. Also by enlightened program I mean social programs. No. You look at [Ireland](http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=7940). Fact is: when abortions are illegal, women still have them. If they have money, they have safe abortions, even outside their country. If they don’t, they have un-safe abortions. Which kill two people, according to your definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/365 "2009-11-06T02:58:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That depends on the definition of a “full mind”, and on how certain we are that it lacks one. We can be certain that a fetus lacks one; it is simply far to undeveloped. The grey area of uncertainty only comes up later. But yes; if a “baby” is essentially brain dead - and that is the level of disability we are talking about here - then there is no one there to save and never will be. [/QUOTE] What about an Alzheimer’s patient, or the mentally defective? Are they human or not? > [@](#): > > Abortion is not murder. And if you label it such, all you’ve done is create a category of murder that it is just to commit. > > Irrelevant. Irrelevant to you but not me. > [@](#): > > But you demand that she serve as life support for it, suffer the risks and damage involved. It’s like this: you have an abandoned child. Society even if it requires taxpayer money should help support him and help him live. > [@](#): > > A place not known for treating women well, unsurprisingly. Opposition to abortion ALWAYS turns out to be about the abuse of women, in the end. Despite all the noble sounding rhetoric. And Ireland is a place where the women who can afford to get abortions anyway outside the borders. Do you want to close the borders to women as well? Yes the rich shouldn’t be allowed to break the law either. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > How do you feel about killing not-potential humans, i.e. actual humans who can walk and talk and stuff? Unacceptable under all conditions? Acceptable under _some_ conditions? Only for self-defense. > [@DiggitCamara](#): > > No. You look at [Ireland](http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=7940). Fact is: when abortions are illegal, women still have them. If they have money, they have safe abortions, even outside their country. If they don’t, they have un-safe abortions. Which kill two people, according to your definitions. Even “unsafe” abortions don’t kill women the overwhelming, vast majority of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/366 "2009-11-06T06:08:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > But yes; if a “baby” is essentially brain dead - and that is the level of disability we are talking about here - then there is no one there to save and never will be. > What about an Alzheimer’s patient, or the mentally defective? Are they human or not? Not the same thing. Someone with Alzheimers is NOT “brain dead”. There’s a HUGE difference between mental illness, dementia, etc and brain death. > [@](#): > > Even “unsafe” abortions don’t kill women the overwhelming, vast majority of the time. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/367 "2009-11-06T06:47:36Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Only for self-defense. Does there have to be a lethal threat? If someone advances on you saying “I’m gonna break your legs”, does that count? What if they don’t say anything but pose a plausible threat of injury? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/368 "2009-11-06T07:31:36Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What about an Alzheimer’s patient, or the mentally defective? Are they human or not? They are all _ **human** _. They may or may not be _ **people** _, however. It depends entirely on how badly damaged their brain is. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Irrelevant to you but not me. No, it’s irrelevant to you too. Otherwise you’d be angsting over all those “potential humans” in every unfertilized egg, sperm cell, and scraped skin. It’s only when that “potential” gives you an excuse to oppress women that you supposedly care. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It’s like this: you have an abandoned child. Society even if it requires taxpayer money should help support him and help him live. A fetus is not a child. And even a child doesn’t have the right to suck my blood. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/369 "2009-11-06T15:34:38Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Even “unsafe” abortions don’t kill women the overwhelming, vast majority of the time. Approximately 70,000 women die every year from unsafe abortions, and 5 million are treated for complications from unsafe abortion. 3 million remain untreated for things like severe bleeding, uterine perforation, cervix tearing, damage to the genitals and abdomen, blood poisoning, chronic pain, Pelvic Inflammatory Disease, and Reproductive Track Infection – which can later lead to death or, perhaps worse in your eyes, miscarriage, premature delivery and infertility. But there has been a drastic drop in deaths, especially in Africa, due to more liberal abortion laws, training midwives to perform first-trimester abortions and the availability of mifepristone. (recent [Guttmacher](http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2009/10/13/index.html) findings.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/370 "2009-11-06T19:07:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They are all _ **human** _. They may or may not be _ **people** _, however. It depends entirely on how badly damaged their brain is. What if they _think_ they’re people? Just kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/371 "2009-11-07T04:46:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They are all _ **human** _. They may or may not be _ **people** _, however. It depends entirely on how badly damaged their brain is. How badly than? > [@](#): > > No, it’s irrelevant to you too. Otherwise you’d be angsting over all those “potential humans” in every unfertilized egg, sperm cell, and scraped skin. It’s only when that “potential” gives you an excuse to oppress women that you supposedly care. No since sperm cells have not been “conceived” yet unlike the fetus. > [@](#): > > A fetus is not a child. And even a child doesn’t have the right to suck my blood. Are you an Objectivist? 😕 > [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Approximately 70,000 women die every year from unsafe abortions, and 5 million are treated for complications from unsafe abortion. 3 million remain untreated for things like severe bleeding, uterine perforation, cervix tearing, damage to the genitals and abdomen, blood poisoning, chronic pain, Pelvic Inflammatory Disease, and Reproductive Track Infection – which can later lead to death or, perhaps worse in your eyes, miscarriage, premature delivery and infertility. > > But there has been a drastic drop in deaths, especially in Africa, due to more liberal abortion laws, training midwives to perform first-trimester abortions and the availability of mifepristone. > > (recent [Guttmacher](http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2009/10/13/index.html) findings.) We are not a Third-World nation like most of Sub-Saharan Africa, we’re a first world state with one of the best medical systems in the world. Those 70,000 women are mainly from Third World nations and a lot of legal abortions are unsafe also. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/372 "2009-11-07T04:51:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > We are not a Third-World nation like most of Sub-Saharan Africa, we’re a first world state with one of the best medical systems in the world. Those 70,000 women are mainly from Third World nations and a\*\* lot of legal abortions are unsafe also\*\*. So, what’s your point? It was still pointed out to you the dangers of illegal abortion and you just shrugged your shoulders. Also, I’d like a cite for the claim I bolded. With examples. (And NOT from anti-abortion cites) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/373 "2009-11-07T04:55:42Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > How badly than? When they have no higher functions, the way a fetus has no higher functions. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No since sperm cells have not been “conceived” yet unlike the fetus. Arbitrary; they are just as alive. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Are you an Objectivist? 😕 No. I mean “suck my blood” _ **literally** _. That is loosely speaking what a fetus is doing. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > We are not a Third-World nation like most of Sub-Saharan Africa, we’re a first world state with one of the best medical systems in the world. A medical system that you want to exclude women who need an abortion from using. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/374 "2009-11-07T04:57:11Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > We are not a Third-World nation like most of Sub-Saharan Africa, we’re a first world state with one of the best medical systems in the world. Those 70,000 women are mainly from Third World nations and a lot of legal abortions are unsafe also. Under a ban, wouldn’t it be illegal to apply that first-world medical knowledge to abortion? Doesn’t this mean that abortion in American can become as unsafe as abortion in Africa? Is it medical knowledge and resources that makes the difference, or is there some kind of magical American abortion fairy at work? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/375 "2009-11-07T05:01:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Arbitrary; they are just as alive. No, a fetus has beginnings of a human body. > [@](#): > > No. I mean “suck my blood” _ **literally** _. That is loosely speaking what a fetus is doing. But you’re male so you aren’t pregnant. > [@](#): > > A medical system that you want to exclude women who need an abortion from using. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Under a ban, wouldn’t it be illegal to apply that first-world medical knowledge to abortion? Doesn’t this mean that abortion in American can become as unsafe as abortion in Africa? Is it medical knowledge and resources that makes the difference, or is there some kind of magical American abortion fairy at work? [/QUOTE] Yes but doctors will still remember how to do abortions and illegal abortion clinics will have their techniques improved after 35 years of legalisation. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/376 "2009-11-07T05:07:00Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yes but doctors will still remember how to do abortions and illegal abortion clinics will have their techniques improved after 35 years of legalisation. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/377 "2009-11-07T05:14:24Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yes but doctors will still remember how to do abortions and illegal abortion clinics will have their techniques improved after 35 years of legalisation. And what happens when, after the ban, these clinics are shut down and the doctors arrested? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/378 "2009-11-07T15:57:40Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And what happens when, after the ban, these clinics are shut down and the doctors arrested? A lot of the doctors will not get caught. Also quite frankly it would be the women’s fault if she tried to have an abortion but was hurt in the process, ever heard of personal responsibility? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/379 "2009-11-07T16:17:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > A lot of the doctors will not get caught. I love how people try to soften the blow of making abortion illegal by reassuring everyone that it won’t stop abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/380 "2009-11-07T16:18:17Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I love how people try to soften the blow of making abortion illegal by reassuring everyone that it won’t stop abortion. However it will reduce the number of abortions especially for idiotic reasons like if a rich whore has one just so that her affair with someone won’t get caught. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=20)