# Both Death Penalty and Abortion or Neither **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270 "2009-10-10T03:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/21 "2009-10-10T17:02:49Z")
Here’s an alternate - you can have fast cars or fast women, but not both. Choose! ---
**Author:** ![Never\_Say\_Dice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee59a6/32.png) [@Never\_Say\_Dice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Never_Say_Dice)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/22 "2009-10-10T17:38:38Z")
I think abortion is a decision for the mother. I think death penalty is a decision for the courts. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/23 "2009-10-10T20:34:57Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Except another “civilized” country, Japan, too has the death penalty and who can’t say it’s the Europeans who are wrong not us. Perhaps the death penalty for those who are a threat to society is a mark of civilization. No, it’s more bloodlust than anything else. That’s why supporters tend to show little concern over killing innocent people; either denying it can happen or saying that it isn’t important. The point for most isn’t to kill “those who are a threat to society”; the point is to kill someone. Anyone. Innocent or guilty. Either out of a straightforward enjoyment of killing, or because some peoples sense of “justice” won’t be satisfied by anything but a death, and they want it bad enough that they’ll sacrifice innocents to feed their urges. As long as they can paper it over with a conviction, no matter how blatantly bad the trial is. In fact, I’m rather reminded of our invading Iraq and slaughtering and torturing its populace, something many Americans excused with 9-11, something they had nothing to do with. We wanted blood, and we didn’t care whose. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/24 "2009-10-10T20:53:45Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s why supporters tend to show little concern over killing innocent people; either denying it can happen or saying that it isn’t important. Out of idle curiosity, what do you consider me? I’m for the death penalty in theory, but I don’t like the numbers of innocent people who have been convicted, so I don’t want the DP in practice, as our justice system now works. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/25 "2009-10-10T20:58:55Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Out of idle curiosity, what do you consider me? I’m for the death penalty in theory, but I don’t like the numbers of innocent people who have been convicted, so I don’t want the DP in practice, as our justice system now works. I’d call you not really a supporter. I personally have no moral problems with executing the really bad people either; I just don’t trust the system to actually do so, or to avoid killing innocents in the process. You aren’t a supporter of the death penalty unless you support it actually being used. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/26 "2009-10-10T21:06:32Z")
I always have trouble deciding which two of fast, cheap, or quality I want. I also have trouble with an arguable premise–that feti (yeah, suck it Latin scholars) are people too–hiding in a question. There are much better ways of explaining one’s point of view, but burying a premise like that is either disingenuous or suggests a dearth of reasoning abilities. Funny thing about this particular cliche is that as mentioned above, it’s much more impugning to the typical right-winger who brings it up, if the you’re-a-hypocrite Gotcha Ya is the intent. Given the likelihood of _some_ innocents being executed, then the but-some-people-_deserve_-to-die is exposed as a fairly shallow argument. But the disbelief that a phetoos (yeah, suck it good spellers) is a person in \*\*any \*\*sense is perfectly compatible with the idea that a state entity should not have power of life and death, or that it is immoral for the state to kill in that situation, or that too many innocent people would be killed, or just about any other argument against the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/27 "2009-10-10T21:16:27Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Out of idle curiosity, what do you consider me? I’m for the death penalty in theory, but I don’t like the numbers of innocent people who have been convicted, so I don’t want the DP in practice, as our justice system now works. Then you’re anti-death penalty. It’s a legal position, not a philosophical one. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/28 "2009-10-10T21:18:49Z")
I choose door number three: abortion on demand, and no death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/29 "2009-10-10T22:18:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Except another “civilized” country, Japan, too has the death penalty and who can’t say it’s the Europeans who are wrong not us. Perhaps the death penalty for those who are a threat to society is a mark of civilization. Some food for thought, think about it. No food for thought. It is wrong. It puts us back to the Hammurabi code which was in place in far less sophisticated times. The baseness and cruelty is disgusting. I hope for something better out of “civilization”. Every execution diminishes us as a people. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/30 "2009-10-10T22:28:34Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Is abortion is available with almost no restrictions and the death penalty used commonly What restrictions and how commonly? If commonly means: pretty much what the US does at the moment, and restrictions are limited to a certain post-conception date - let’s say 4 months for the sake of argument, then that would be my preferred choice. If it means kill everybody for any crime, and also kill children just before the moment they’re born, then that would not be my preferred choice. I have the feeling this is one of those hypothetical “gotcha” things that pretend to be debates. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/31 "2009-10-10T22:34:56Z")
The Death Penalty has not been shown to reduce crime, and it costs more than life imprisonment. It’s a waste of money. There’s also the small risk of innocent people being executed to consider. But the vast majority of people executed are actually guilty of murder, and I can’t be too sad over _their_ deaths. There’s also the fact that the death penalty is tending to become less and less commonly used. So capital punishment affects a relatively small number of people. There is some research which indicates abortion [reduces](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect) crime. In a nutshell: Many children who would have grown up unwanted and impoverished get aborted instead, and thus don’t grow up to be criminals. I lean toward utilitarianism. From a utilitarian standpoint of reducing the overall amount of suffering in the world, I’d have to go with the OP’s first choice. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/32 "2009-10-10T23:16:07Z")
It’s a false dilemma. The two issues have very little to do with each other ethically or practically. Your moral logic concerning abortion is spectacularly flawed by your previous advocacy for vapourising foetuses (along with most other human beings) at the point of a nuclear ballistic missile, yet would disallow the mother of the right to termination. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/33 "2009-10-10T23:25:08Z")
As stupid as I find this question to be, I’ll answer. While I’m vehemently pro-choice, I would have to go with neither. I’d make an acception for rape/incest, and/or the mother’s life/health, but there have just been too many cases of false convictions for me to support the death penalty. I would instead, do my damndest to support better sex education and access to birth control. I feel so dirty. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/34 "2009-10-10T23:49:32Z")
Wait a minute, let me see if I’ve got the idea right . . . if you’re a woman carrying an unwanted pregnancy, you can have an abortion, but then you have to submit to the death penalty? That’s wack. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/35 "2009-10-10T23:50:54Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I choose door number three: abortion on demand, and no death penalty. This. Some hypotheticals _need_ to be fought. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/36 "2009-10-11T00:07:19Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Some food for thought, think about it. That is not food for thought. It is a simple assertion unsupported by anything at all. It might even be accurate, but until you take the time to actually think about it, yourself, and present an actual logical chain of concepts and facts, it is not food for thought. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/37 "2009-10-11T02:37:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, just for laughs, let’s say there are ~1 million executions in the U.S. per year, roughly on par with the number of abortions. > > I figure the conflict will self-resolve as the U.S. rapidly depopulates itself. Might check your math- an additional million people killed each year in the US is about .3% of the population, and the US’s population growth is still well over that number. You could off a million people a year here and barely dent growth rates. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/38 "2009-10-11T04:28:19Z")
Then again, I doubt those would be the only ones to die. Killing a million people a year is hardly going to help social stability. Especially as it’s guaranteed they’ll overwhelmingly be people who are poorer and with darker skins. What happens to the black population when you kill, say, half a million a year? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/39 "2009-10-11T04:45:13Z")
Don’t worry, you’re already 4.5% of the way there. Keep on Truckin’! ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/40 "2009-10-11T09:11:18Z")
I think the OP meant to have us decide which issue is more important to us pro-abortion, anti-capital punishment people. For me it’s capital punishment without question. Who the fuck ACTUALLY cares about abortions? Everyone is for it or against it in theory, but who actually, honestly gives a shit about it in real-life? A couple of protesters on one side, and a couple of people in the industry on the other. The people I know who actually HAD abortions don’t even really care about the issue. But I know I personally feel less safe knowing that I could be killed because of people’s misguided sense of justice, and it makes me angry in real life that innocent people have likely been killed by the courts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=3)