# Both Death Penalty and Abortion or Neither **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270 "2009-10-10T03:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/401 "2009-11-08T01:57:25Z")
Well, how crazy does a statement have to be before we can say “You said something crazy” ? I don’t know if Curtis means it when he talks about using the military to enforce an abortion ban, restricting interstate travel for pregnant women or speaking favourably about breeding an underclass to use as cannon fodder in future wars, but these are some seriously nutty notions. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/402 "2009-11-08T04:07:34Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Ignoring the many thousand other things wrong with this, contrary to popular belief the military does not draw exclusively or even primarily from the lower classes. In fact they’re less represented percentagewise than the upper middle. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I sincerely applaud the entertaining manner in which you’ve chosen to finally and irrevocably go off the deep end. I am afraid you misinterpreted my statement; what I meant was that because you are poor doesn’t automatically mean you will stay poor and in the USA one of the best ways to go up the ladder is to get into the military. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And? A body without a mind is just meat that isn’t dead. However a fetus has potential for life unlike a dead body which will stay dead. > [@](#): > > Which was more or less my point; you were trying to create a false comparison between caring for an abandoned baby and unwanted pregnancy. Among the differences you were ignoring is that such a baby isn’t a direct, physical drain on the body. What about caring for the baby or the financial concerns regarding it? Also hypothetically in the future if artificial wombs were to be invented and cheap and ubiquitous and freely provided by the government would you support banning abortion since there no longer any reason to have an abortion (even to save the mother’s life)? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/403 "2009-11-08T04:16:21Z")
As for the statistics, here is a dissertion on it: [http://blackadderiv.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/making-abortion-illegal-reduces-the-abortion-rate/](http://blackadderiv.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/making-abortion-illegal-reduces-the-abortion-rate/) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/404 "2009-11-08T04:19:33Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > However a fetus has potential for life unlike a dead body which will stay dead. And so do sperm and eggs, and so does every cell in my body, given cloning. Potential just isn’t that big a deal. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What about caring for the baby or the financial concerns regarding it? Separate subject. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also hypothetically in the future if artificial wombs were to be invented and cheap and ubiquitous and freely provided by the government would you support banning abortion since there no longer any reason to have an abortion (even to save the mother’s life)? No. What you seem unable to understand is that I simply don’t consider abortion even slightly immoral. I wouldn’t ban it under any circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/405 "2009-11-08T04:22:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And so do sperm and eggs, and so does every cell in my body, given cloning. Potential just isn’t that big a deal. Realistic potential. Sperm cells 99.9999999% of the time will not be fetuses and thus humans and cloning is not feasible yet. However a fetus has a good chance of being born and thus becoming human. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/406 "2009-11-08T04:24:31Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Realistic potential. Sperm cells 99.9999999% of the time will not be fetuses and thus humans and cloning is not feasible yet. However a fetus has a good chance of being born and thus becoming human. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/407 "2009-11-08T05:03:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I am afraid you misinterpreted my statement; what I meant was that because you are poor doesn’t automatically mean you will stay poor and in the USA one of the best ways to go up the ladder is to get into the military. Well, I’ll take your word for it (though more on this shortly). It’s just in that particular post, you accomplished an entirely comical fascist triple play, and I really did laugh as I read it: 1. Use the army to enforce the laws, and not in the sense of protecting civil rights as the troops in the sixties did when they escorted black students into schools to protect them from local whites and local law enforcement who was not only disinterested in protecting the blacks, but in many cases would eagerly have helped attack them. 2. Regulating and restricting the movements of a class of citizens within the country, with the attendant image of state-border security guards (or soldiers) demanding that woman show their “papers” or, not inconceivably, take pregnancy tests before leaving and after returning. 3. The working classes must keep breeding to keep the war machine fed. Sure, it’s possible to work your way out of poverty in the U.S. What should be obvious, though, is that this is a lot easier if you don’t have more kids than you can afford. If working your way out of poverty is considered a _good_ thing, it’s counter-productive to put laws in place that will stymie this process. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/408 "2009-11-08T20:23:01Z")
I don’t even think it was that strict prior to _Roe_. What were the penalties if you were found to have had an illegal abortion – if any? (I’m assuming it wasn’t jail time!) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/409 "2009-11-08T21:13:49Z")
If my memory is correct, it was the provider who got jailed. There were floating clinics that moved around providing abortions and then closing down before the cops found out about them. The usually were less about revenue than principle, although some fly by night operators botched up a lot of abortions and charged a ton of money. You paid up front. It was ugly times and they would come back if the anti abortion group got their way. You can not legislate your morality on others. If you do not believe in abortion, don’t have one. But saying I don’t believe in abortion ,so you should not have one is overstepping your bounds. When it was legalized , the Supreme Court said ,“Through English and American common law and statutes, the unborn have never been recognized as persons in the “whole sense”, and are not entitled to the rights of life enumerated in the 14th Amendment.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/410 "2009-11-09T03:06:53Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You can not legislate your morality on others.If you do not believe in abortion, don’t have one. But saying I don’t believe in abortion ,so you should not have one is overstepping your bounds. Right – I know so many people who ARE anti-abortion, but are pro-choice at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blut_Aus_Nord)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/411 "2009-11-09T03:19:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Realistic potential. Sperm cells 99.9999999% of the time will not be fetuses and thus humans and cloning is not feasible yet. However a fetus has a good chance of being born and thus becoming human. What if the fetus has an underlying medical condition that cuts the chances of survival significantly? Is the mother now entitled to say, “Eh, bastards gonna die anyway, pith him,” or is this somehow different? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/412 "2009-11-11T02:12:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, I’ll take your word for it (though more on this shortly). It’s just in that particular post, you accomplished an entirely comical fascist triple play, and I really did laugh as I read it: > > 1. Use the army to enforce the laws, and not in the sense of protecting civil rights as the troops in the sixties did when they escorted black students into schools to protect them from local whites and local law enforcement who was not only disinterested in protecting the blacks, but in many cases would eagerly have helped attack them. It’s protecting the fetuses’ right to live which would be a civil right. > [@](#): > > 1. Regulating and restricting the movements of a class of citizens within the country, with the attendant image of state-border security guards (or soldiers) demanding that woman show their “papers” or, not inconceivably, take pregnancy tests before leaving and after returning. It’s already happened under the Mann Act and various other laws checking for firearms and so on so what’s so wrong about this? > [@](#): > > 1. The working classes must keep breeding to keep the war machine fed. > Sure, it’s possible to work your way out of poverty in the U.S. What should be obvious, though, is that this is a lot easier if you don’t have more kids than you can afford. If working your way out of poverty is considered a _good_ thing, it’s counter-productive to put laws in place that will stymie this process. If you really financially can’t afford a child you can safely abandon him outside a firehouse. > [@Chakra Nadmara](#): > > What if the fetus has an underlying medical condition that cuts the chances of survival significantly? Is the mother now entitled to say, “Eh, bastards gonna die anyway, pith him,” or is this somehow different? Just because Nature kills a baby does not mean we humans have an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blut_Aus_Nord)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/413 "2009-11-11T03:06:29Z")
No one’s killing any babies. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/414 "2009-11-11T03:45:33Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It’s protecting the fetuses’ right to live which would be a civil right. First, you have to PROVE that fetuses have civil rights. (Which, currently, they do NOT) > [@](#): > > It’s already happened under the Mann Act and various other laws checking for firearms and so on so what’s so wrong about this? Excuse me? Try HIPAA. Try major invasion of privacy. Try Fifth Amendment. You know the words “probable cause?” You can’t just search someone’s body like that even if you think they’re a murder suspect, **Curtis**! Not without a warrant. You know, the whole, “innocent until proven guilty?” What you’re suggesting is a MAJOR Constitutional violation, and would turn this nation into a police state. I’ll be goddamned before I take a pregnancy test just to leave the fucking state/country! BTW, how about some cites for exactly WHAT the Mann Act requires. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/415 "2009-11-11T04:22:48Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > First, you have to PROVE that fetuses have civil rights. (Which, currently, they do NOT) They have strong potential to be human thus they have the right to live. > [@](#): > > Excuse me? Try HIPAA. Try major invasion of privacy. Try Fifth Amendment. You know the words “probable cause?” You can’t just search someone’s body like that even if you think they’re a murder suspect, **Curtis**! Not without a warrant. You know, the whole, “innocent until proven guilty?” What you’re suggesting is a MAJOR Constitutional violation, and would turn this nation into a police state. > I’ll be goddamned before I take a pregnancy test just to leave the fucking state/country! > > BTW, how about some cites for exactly WHAT the Mann Act requires. Mann Act: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann\_Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Act) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/416 "2009-11-11T05:15:15Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It’s protecting the fetuses’ right to live which would be a civil right. If it is a right, it’s in conflict with the rights of another person who is not a potential human, but an actual human. Assigning priority isn’t exactly a tough decision. > [@](#): > > It’s already happened under the Mann Act and various other laws checking for firearms and so on so what’s so wrong about this? Because the Mann act is a license for prosecutors to hassle people who are harming no-one. You seriously want to give a government official the right to demand a pregnancy test? > [@](#): > > If you really financially can’t afford a child you can safely abandon him outside a firehouse. Or in a dumpster. In any case, figure half of those who abort instead leave their newborns at firestations. What do you plan to do with 500,000 foundlings? “Something” doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/417 "2009-11-11T14:55:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If you really financially can’t afford a child you can safely abandon him outside a firehouse. How about affording a pregnancy, childbirth, and recovery? I’m curious what shiny, happy, feel-good solution you have for that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/418 "2009-11-11T19:55:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > They have strong potential to be human thus they have the right to live. According to who? You? The law? Once again, you haven’t proven this, **Curtis**. Only your opinion. > [@](#): > > Mann Act: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann\_Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Act) The Mann Act does not say what you think it says. There is no mention of armed border guards. (or indeed, any at all.) NONE of what you’ve stated (checking for papers, searches, etc) has occurred under the Mann Act. Unless you’re seriously saying it should be amended to add a manditory pregnancy test before leaving the state? That’s what you’re suggesting, no? Hell, anytime I’ve travelled from one state to another, all I see is a sign saying, “Welcome to the State of Such and Such!” And again, how are you going to get around the following: -[The Fourth Amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) -[The Fifth Amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) -[HIPAA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPAA) -[Search Warrant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_warrant#United_States) -[Probable Cause](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause) _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/419 "2009-11-16T00:34:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If it is a right, it’s in conflict with the rights of another person who is not a potential human, but an actual human. Assigning priority isn’t exactly a tough decision. Hmm a person’s right to kill for convenience or the right to live; it ain’t a tough decision but the other way around. > [@](#): > > Because the Mann act is a license for prosecutors to hassle people who are harming no-one. You seriously want to give a government official the right to demand a pregnancy test? If it goes through proper legal procedures, yes. > [@](#): > > Or in a dumpster. In any case, figure half of those who abort instead leave their newborns at firestations. What do you plan to do with 500,000 foundlings? > > “Something” doesn’t count. Well they don’t, do they, so if that problem comes up solve it than. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > According to who? You? The law? Once again, you haven’t proven this, **Curtis**. Only your opinion. Saying that blacks shouldn’t be enslaved is a matter of opinion also and so is murder is wrong. However it’s the right opinion for a civilized society to maintain order and freedom. > [@](#): > > The Mann Act does not say what you think it says. There is no mention of armed border guards. (or indeed, any at all.) NONE of what you’ve stated (checking for papers, searches, etc) has occurred under the Mann Act. Unless you’re seriously saying it should be amended to add a manditory pregnancy test before leaving the state? That’s what you’re suggesting, no? > > Hell, anytime I’ve travelled from one state to another, all I see is a sign saying, “Welcome to the State of Such and Such!” > > And again, how are you going to get around the following: > > -[The Fourth Amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) > > -[The Fifth Amendment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) > > -[HIPAA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPAA) > > -[Search Warrant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_warrant#United_States) > > -[Probable Cause](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause) > _sigh_ Than what about the various border checks which search for weapons, smuggle goods, and so on? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/420 "2009-11-16T00:43:17Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Hmm a person’s right to kill for convenience or the right to live; it ain’t a tough decision but the other way around. Correct, but not the way you mean. Since only one party is a person, it’s quite clear that the woman’s desires are morally paramount. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well they don’t, do they, so if that problem comes up solve it than. :rolleyes: They don’t because people like YOU haven’t gotten their way. You are trying to create that problem, then saying “just solve it” to your victims. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Saying that blacks shouldn’t be enslaved is a matter of opinion also and so is murder is wrong. However it’s the right opinion for a civilized society to maintain order and freedom. Except, it’s your side that is against order and freedom. It’s your side that is cruel, oppressive and barbaric. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=22)