# Both Death Penalty and Abortion or Neither **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270 "2009-10-10T03:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/421 "2009-11-16T00:45:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Correct, but not the way you mean. Since only one party is a person, it’s quite clear that the woman’s desires are morally paramount. Do you think it’s morally fine for a man to say torture a rabbit for fun? > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: They don’t because people like YOU haven’t gotten their way. You are trying to create that problem, then saying “just solve it” to your victims. No we will have to expand programs, increase funding, and etc. once that problem comes up. > [@](#): > > Except, it’s your side that is against order and freedom. It’s your side that is cruel, oppressive and barbaric. How is that not a matter of opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/422 "2009-11-16T01:29:17Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Do you think it’s morally fine for a man to say torture a rabbit for fun? No, because rabbits suffer. I’d consider it quite moral to sacrifice a human fetus to save a pet rabbit, by the way. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No we will have to expand programs, increase funding, and etc. once that problem comes up. As if they kind of people who would push for anti-abortion laws would care. More likely you’d find any programs related to women and children cut or eliminated. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > How is that not a matter of opinion? You are trying to oppress people in favor of things that are not people; that is not opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/423 "2009-11-16T01:50:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Because the Mann act is a license for prosecutors to hassle people who are harming no-one. You seriously want to give a government official the right to demand a pregnancy test? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If it goes through proper legal procedures, yes. Over my dead body. Again, how do you get around the Fourth and Fifth Amendments? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Than what about the various border checks which search for weapons, smuggle goods, and so on? None of those would violate HIPAA. Again, are you talking state or country? Because as I said, I’ve never seen this for state borders. And I’d like to see a CITE for these claims. What do they involve? Car searches? Pat downs? Body cavity searches? Urine tests? Strip searches? And are you only talking US/Canada? I want a cite. And examples. (Can anyone tell me – DO they actually search everyone for these items as **Curtis** claims?) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/424 "2009-11-16T02:23:41Z")
BTW, **Curtis** – I’m still confused – would EVERY single woman be required to take a pregnancy test – as in, it would be a manditory condition upon leaving the country? Or only if she was suspected to be leaving to get an abortion? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/425 "2009-11-16T02:29:30Z")
Here’s my experience going through Canada in 2007: Pulled up to border crossing at the thousand island bridge in the middle of the night, 12ish. I had a state driver’s license, a car full of my stuff for heading back home in Michigan, and a smile. Border guard asked what I was gonna do in Canada. I gave her my driver’s license and played dumb about the birth certificate, and explained I was seeing a friend up there on my way home to Michigan. They called my friend up, her dad answered and said she knew me, and they let me through. Also my friend said if they had woken her up she’d have told them I was terrorist for waking her up so late. Rentry in to US was just as easy. Talked to a nice man at the border, and got yelled at customs because the drive through in big bold letters proclaimed “exchange your money”, with no noticed mention about customs, and I didn’t need to do any exchanges, so didn’t stop. After I was yelled at they let me go. At no point was I checked for drugs or illicit fetuses. Anyway moral of story: most important thing you need to get in Canada is to know a Canadian Also ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/426 "2009-11-23T00:30:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, because rabbits suffer. I’d consider it quite moral to sacrifice a human fetus to save a pet rabbit, by the way. How do you know that rabbits “suffer” but human fetuses don’t? > [@](#): > > As if they kind of people who would push for anti-abortion laws would care. More likely you’d find any programs related to women and children cut or eliminated. I’m fairly a moderate on economic and social welfare issues actually > [@](#): > > You are trying to oppress people in favor of things that are not people; that is not opinion. What do you mean that’s not an opinion? [ > [@](#): > > QUOTE=Guinastasia;11782511]Over my dead body. > > Again, how do you get around the Fourth and Fifth Amendments? > > None of those would violate HIPAA. > > Again, are you talking state or country? Because as I said, I’ve never seen this for state borders. And I’d like to see a CITE for these claims. What do they involve? Car searches? Pat downs? Body cavity searches? Urine tests? Strip searches? For instance at state borders police will search for say some types of guns if it’s restricted in the state the driver is entering. Also basically the women will have to get proof of not being pregnant. > [@](#): > > And are you only talking US/Canada? > > I want a cite. And examples. > (Can anyone tell me – DO they actually search everyone for these items as **Curtis** claims?) US/ Mexico too. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > BTW, **Curtis** – I’m still confused – would EVERY single woman be required to take a pregnancy test – as in, it would be a manditory condition upon leaving the country? Or only if she was suspected to be leaving to get an abortion? The latter. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/427 "2009-11-23T00:43:05Z")
This thread has been dead for a week, why bump it up now? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > For instance at state borders police will search for say some types of guns if it’s restricted in the state the driver is entering. Also basically the women will have to get proof of not being pregnant. You have YET to offer a cite, **Curtis**! PPOR.\* And again, HOW are you going to know if she’s leaving the country to get an abortion, or suspect she’s pregnant? Go through her trash to find a pregnancy test? Supoena her medical records? You’ve been asked numerous times about how you’ll get around various laws and _Constitutional protections_, and yet you haven’t answered them. NO doctor is going to willingly tell you, “yes, so and so is pregnant, and yes, she’s going to Canada.” Gah, it’s like talking to a brick wall! :mad: \*[sub]Post Proof Or Retract[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/428 "2009-11-23T02:26:39Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > How do you know that rabbits “suffer” but human fetuses don’t? Because rabbits have the necessary brains, and a fetus doesn’t. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What do you mean that’s not an opinion? Women are people; that is not an opinion. A fetus is not a person; that is also not an opinion. You wish to oppress women, who are people, in favor of fetuses, which are not people. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/429 "2009-11-23T02:55:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because rabbits have the necessary brains, and a fetus doesn’t. A person in a coma technically can’t feel any pain either. > [@](#): > > Women are people; that is not an opinion. A fetus is not a person; that is also not an opinion. You wish to oppress women, who are people, in favor of fetuses, which are not people. Sigh… could you stop your tired old line of “misogynist”? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/430 "2009-11-23T02:59:05Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Sigh… could you stop your tired old line of “misogynist”? I didn’t use the word. But whether you choose to admit it or not, you ARE pushing for the oppression of women. ---
**Author:** ![Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blut_Aus_Nord)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/431 "2009-11-23T03:55:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because rabbits have the necessary brains, and a fetus doesn’t. [[URL=“http://www.abortionfacts.com/online\_books/love\_them\_both/why\_cant\_we\_love\_them\_both\_14.asp”]Really?](http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_14.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/432 "2009-11-23T04:02:14Z")
> [@Chakra Nadmara](#): > > [[URL=“http://www.abortionfacts.com/online\_books/love\_them\_both/why\_cant\_we\_love\_them\_both\_14.asp”]Really?](http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_14.asp) No offense, but that is an extremely biased source. If you look on one section, yet again, they show a picture of an “abortion”, that looks like a late-term miscarriage or stillborn. EVEN if it’s true, I still believe that abortion should be kept legal…and safe. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/433 "2009-11-23T18:43:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > BTW, **Curtis** , technically a pregnancy does NOT begin until a fertilized egg attaches itself to the wall of the uterus. Thus, your argument that life begins at conception is itself flawed. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That is only a little bit after conception and it’s usually quite certain that will happen. BTW, according to the [Wiki article on abortion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Spontaneous_abortion), this is not true: > [@](#): > > Between 10% and 50% of pregnancies end in clinically apparent miscarriage, depending upon the age and health of the pregnant woman. Most miscarriages occur very early in pregnancy, in most cases, they occur so early in the pregnancy that the woman is not even aware that she was pregnant. One study testing hormones for ovulation and pregnancy found that 61.9% of conceptuses were lost prior to 12 weeks, and 91.7% of these losses occurred subclinically, without the knowledge of the once pregnant woman. In order for a woman to become pregnant, and for a fertilized egg to implant, she must be ovulating. Your ignorance of the female body and the way it works is frightening. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/434 "2009-11-23T18:50:23Z")
(Damned time limit!) I also wanted to mention your lack of knowledge of the difference between a fertilized egg, an embryo, and a fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/435 "2009-11-23T22:06:45Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And again, HOW are you going to know if she’s leaving the country to get an abortion, or suspect she’s pregnant? Go through her trash to find a pregnancy test? Supoena her medical records? I imagine all girls and women between 9-ish and 60 or so would have to go to a special room where they’d offer a urine sample in front of a security officer. They’d then have to wait for the results of one or more pregnancy samples. Not sure if girls would have to register somewhere after the beginning of their first period, or if women would be able to get a special stamp if they were infertile or had a hysterectomy. Perhaps all pregnant girls and women would be banned from leaving the country, or maybe they’d have to get another test upon re-entry. Of course, there’s no reason to think that if this were taken up it would remain at the borders. Perpetual pregnancy tests for all women, at all times, and god help those who miscarry. Especially if they’ve smoked or drank, eaten the wrong things, or worked or exercised too strenuously. But would you _please_ just stop with all that misogyny bunk? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/436 "2009-11-24T00:28:12Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > But would you _please_ just stop with all that misogyny bunk? Who, me? I’m not the one proposing pregnancy tests at the border if one is suspected of leaving the country to obtain an abortion. (How would you know this, is what I’m asking) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/437 "2009-11-24T00:31:22Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Who, me? I’m not the one proposing pregnancy tests at the border if one is suspected of leaving the country to obtain an abortion. (How would you know this, is what I’m asking) Just mocking this (though, upon re-reading as much of this thread as I could bear, it’s hard to take any of it seriously). > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Sigh… could you stop your tired old line of “misogynist”? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/438 "2009-11-24T02:28:15Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Just mocking this (though, upon re-reading as much of this thread as I could bear, it’s hard to take any of it seriously). Ah, I see. (Is it insane in here, or is it just me) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/439 "2009-11-24T03:07:48Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > BTW, according to the [Wiki article on abortion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Spontaneous_abortion), this is not true: > > In order for a woman to become pregnant, and for a fertilized egg to implant, she must be ovulating. Your ignorance of the female body and the way it works is frightening. Once again even if nature causes the majority of fetuses to naturally abort that doesn’t give humans the excuse to abort them any more than the fact that humans die in hurricanes or earthquakes give us a excuse to bomb someone’s house. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/440 "2009-11-24T04:11:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Once again even if nature causes the majority of fetuses to naturally abort that doesn’t give humans the excuse to abort them any more than the fact that humans die in hurricanes or earthquakes give us a excuse to bomb someone’s house. People were refuting your “pregnancy begins at conception” point. Not to mention THESE ARE NOT FETUSES. Once again, we’re speaking of fertilized eggs and embryos. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=23)