# Both Death Penalty and Abortion or Neither **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270 "2009-10-10T03:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/441 "2009-11-24T17:30:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > People were refuting your “pregnancy begins at conception” point. Not to mention THESE ARE NOT FETUSES. Once again, we’re speaking of fertilized eggs and embryos. However at coneception is when fetuses have a probable chance at life. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/442 "2009-11-24T18:13:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > However at coneception is when fetuses have a probable chance at life. At conception is when fetuses have a 100% chance of not existing. ---
**Author:** ![Sebastienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Sebastienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sebastienne)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/443 "2009-11-25T05:37:03Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > However at coneception is when fetuses have a probable chance at life. Huh? There is no fetus at conception, merely a fertilized egg that MAY become a fetus, but the odds are it won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/444 "2009-11-25T20:05:18Z")
> [@Sebastienne](#): > > Huh? > > There is no fetus at conception, merely a fertilized egg that MAY become a fetus, but the odds are it won’t. It’s been pointed out, yes. I believe a pregnancy doesn’t reach the fetal stage until what, roughly around three months? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/445 "2009-11-26T00:07:40Z")
Well the fertilized egg than. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/446 "2009-11-26T01:11:38Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well the fertilized egg than. …has more civil rights than the woman hosting it? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/447 "2009-11-26T01:35:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > …has more civil rights than the woman hosting it? No, if fori instance abortions has to happen to save the life of the mother it’s justifed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/448 "2009-11-26T01:38:35Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No, if fori instance abortions has to happen to save the life of the mother it’s justifed. Really and for true? I simply can’t imagine why such generosity of spirit isn’t being universally hailed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/449 "2009-11-26T02:12:04Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No, if fori instance abortions has to happen to save the life of the mother it’s justifed. But the pain, the sickness, the permanent effects on her health; that’s just fine. She needs to accept her role as human cattle and just breed as commanded. She’s a woman, not a real person. Besides, there’s a good chance that fertilized egg is male, and therefore her superior even from before birth as ordained by God. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/450 "2009-11-26T04:13:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Fetuses aren’t people, so who gives a shit. I can understand folks saying embryos aren’t people but doesn’t a fetus become people at some point or is the personhood (for moral purposes) only conferred upon live birth? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/451 "2009-11-26T04:15:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I choose door number three: abortion on demand, and no death penalty. I choose door number four, fewer abortions and more executions. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/452 "2009-11-26T04:17:45Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > No food for thought. It is wrong. It puts us back to the Hammurabi code which was in place in far less sophisticated times. The baseness and cruelty is disgusting. I hope for something better out of “civilization”. Every execution diminishes us as a people. WTF are you talking about. How does an execution diminish us as a people? Or is that just rhetorical flourish so that people who agree with you can say amen? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/453 "2009-11-26T04:24:52Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The Death Penalty has not been shown to reduce crime, and it costs more than life imprisonment. For every source you can cite saying that the death penalty does not have a deterrent effect, I can probably cite a source saying the exact opposite. > [@](#): > > There is some research which indicates abortion [reduces](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect) crime. In a nutshell: Many children who would have grown up unwanted and impoverished get aborted instead, and thus don’t grow up to be criminals. > > I lean toward utilitarianism. From a utilitarian standpoint of reducing the overall amount of suffering in the world, I’d have to go with the OP’s first choice. I thought utilitarianism was about maximizing utility not reducing suffering. You could just as easily reduce suffering by killing everyone on earth. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/454 "2009-11-26T04:26:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I expect the women forced to bear children against their will in places where it’s illegal care. Or those who died from unsafe abortions, or because they weren’t allowed to get an abortion. Or pregnant women who suffered or died because the available hospital refused to help them out of fear of being accused of abortion if she miscarried. And so on. > > Abortion is a major issue that affects millions, not the trivial thing you obviously think it is. I guess the millions of aborted fetuses don’t really care anymore cuz they’re dead. SO I guess there is really only one side to the issue. /boggle ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/455 "2009-11-26T04:30:48Z")
You know, you don’t have to make post after post after post, right? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/456 "2009-11-26T04:33:59Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > SOMEDAY, we might find a way to make abortion unnecessary, but until then, there’s no way I see it being outlawed. How about abortions limited to the first trimester unless the life or health of the mother is at stake? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/457 "2009-11-26T04:35:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; it is recognizing that women are people and a fetus is not. Yeah, they’re not even recognized as 3/5ths of a person. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/458 "2009-11-26T04:35:30Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Abortions and death penalty. Which is the position I already hold. I really don’t get why people thing that’s a contradictory belief. Me, too. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/459 "2009-11-26T04:38:14Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > The whole abortion/pro-life argument is a huge straw dog to me. I am interested in protecting innocence. This includes the innocent helpless viable unborn. It also includes potential innocent victims of already established murderers, rapists, and pedophiles. Medium to late term abortionists, unless it actually, really, truly affects the life of the mother, should be jailed. > > Protection of life for its own sake has nothing to do with it. Would it change your mind at all if you knew for a fact that for every innocent victim of state sponsored executions there were a thousand prevented murders? I am actually on the fence about this and noone has actually proven deterrence for a fact but I would at least have to think about the thousand lives that might be saved if the death penalty were in fact a deterrent of that magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/460 "2009-11-26T04:40:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Viable” is just a technological definition. Eventually that amounts to outlawing abortion altogether as the technology to keep a fetus alive improves. > > And I find the idea of forcing some woman who was kept in a basement for six months and repeatedly raped to bear the child of her rapist utterly evil. So you find it acceptable to punish the child of a rapist and his victim with death? I’ll tell you what, lets carve out an exception for that fact pattern just like we can carve out an exception to torture for ticking time bombs and then say no abortions after viability unless the health or life of the mother is at stake? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=24)