# Both Death Penalty and Abortion or Neither **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270 "2009-10-10T03:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/81 "2009-10-16T01:41:02Z")
Okay, we’ll compromise. You can stage dogfights that take place inside your own body, because what happens inside your own body is entirely your business. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/82 "2009-10-16T01:44:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Okay, we’ll compromise. You can stage dogfights that take place inside your own body, because what happens inside your own body is entirely your business. The fetus is a separate human life. By your logic dogfights should be legal as long as you own the dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/83 "2009-10-16T01:46:35Z")
Yes, and as long as they’re inside your body. I feel I cannot overstate the significance of this “inside your body” element. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/84 "2009-10-16T02:09:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, and as long as they’re inside your body. I feel I cannot overstate the significance of this “inside your body” element. The fetus is a separate life form from the rest of your body. It’s like say a box in a truck. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/85 "2009-10-16T02:19:21Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The fetus is a separate life form from the rest of your body. It’s like say a box in a truck. Yes, but the truck is alive and has independent will. The truck goes where the truck wants. The truck is not a mindless mechanical slave and can determine what roads it wants to drive on and what cargo it wants to carry. Will you acknowledge that the truck is capable of driving itself and making its own decisions? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/86 "2009-10-16T02:29:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, but the truck is alive and has independent will. The truck goes where the truck wants. The truck is not a mindless mechanical slave and can determine what roads it wants to drive on and what cargo it wants to carry. > > Will you acknowledge that the truck is capable of driving itself and making its own decisions? The dog too is not capable of rational thought like as you are implying with the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/87 "2009-10-16T03:04:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, and as long as they’re inside your body. I feel I cannot overstate the significance of this “inside your body” element. I didn’t mean for this to turn into yet another abortion debate. We all have our different criteria that is important. Yours centers around “inside your body” which I guess means a woman can terminate her baby seconds before giving birth. My criteria are different from yours. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/88 "2009-10-16T04:22:19Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The dog too is not capable of rational thought like as you are implying with the fetus. I’m not implying anything about the fetus. I cheerfully leave it to others to pile labels on the fetus. I’m asking about the woman. > [@Deeg](#): > > My criteria are different from yours. Well, that’s life in the diverse liberal post-industrial societies for ya. Different criteria all around, but for the most part, uniform laws and public ethics. ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/89 "2009-10-16T13:31:13Z")
abortions and death penalty, with the provision that requirements for evidence are raised above ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ in death penalty cases. If thats not possible, then no death penalty and no abortions(barring life saving treatments). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/90 "2009-10-16T17:04:40Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#): > > abortions and death penalty, with the provision that requirements for evidence are raised above ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ in death penalty cases. As always, this hinges on what the OP meant by “commonly”. Does this more frequently than is current in the U.S., as frequent, or less frequent? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/91 "2009-10-16T22:44:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m not implying anything about the fetus. I cheerfully leave it to others to pile labels on the fetus. I’m asking about the woman. Similarly the dog owner by your logic has the freedom to stage dog fights. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As always, this hinges on what the OP meant by “commonly”. Does this more frequently than is current in the U.S., as frequent, or less frequent? Something like in the US in 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/92 "2009-10-16T22:51:15Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Similarly the dog owner by your logic has the freedom to stage dog fights. Yes, as long as they’re inside the dog owner’s body. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/93 "2009-10-16T23:06:23Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > Yes, as long as they’re inside the dog owner’s body. While your fetus may be in a woman’s body, it is not a permanent part of her like say the liver or long intestine. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/94 "2009-10-16T23:10:48Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Roe doesn’t have to be overturned. Roe has been reiterated (see Planned Parenthood v. Casey) to say that the State does not have a compelling interest to prohibit abortion at a point when the fetus is not viable outside of the mother. Once the fetus _is_ viable outside of the mother’s body, the state _does_ have an interest and _can_ prohibit abortion. > > The SCOTUS upheld in Casey: > > Once viability is essentially from “conception on” there won’t be any major conflict with Roe. :dubious: Really? You don’t think there’d be any “major conflict” if abortion were to be completely outlawed? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/95 "2009-10-16T23:33:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > While your fetus may be in a woman’s body, it is not a permanent part of her like say the liver or long intestine. So? A person that breaks into your house doesn’t become a permanent part of the woodwork, but nevertheless we recognize your right to have that person leave on your schedule, not theirs. And perhaps more on point, if one has a growing tumour in his or her body, one is justified in looking askance at a third party who insists that the growth process must be allowed to continue naturally (and such people do exist), even if one wishes to excise it at a time of one’s choosing. I don’t know offhand how common the death penalty was in the States in the 1950s. Can we assume at least that a modern version will use more rigorous standards of evidence including DNA and whatnot? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/96 "2009-10-16T23:41:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, that’s life in the diverse liberal post-industrial societies for ya. Different criteria all around, but for the most part, uniform laws and public ethics. I totally agree. We all have things that we consider important enough to pass laws that override someone else’s opinions. For me that is abortion (among other things); other people protect eagles or stop dog fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/97 "2009-10-17T00:12:45Z")
I describe myself as pro-life, so the choice is easy. I’ve been in favor of outlawing both abortion\* and the death penalty for a long time, and vote accordingly as much as possible. I reject the hand-waving that the pre-born child is not a person or that the convicted criminal forfeits the right to live. \*except in the rare cases that the mother’s life in endangered ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/98 "2009-10-17T01:54:29Z")
I’d choose abortion and death penalty. I’m against the death penalty in all cases, but I wouldn’t give up my right to control my body, and I also wouldn’t be the one committing the executions. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/99 "2009-10-17T02:11:06Z")
I think abortion should be severely curtailed after a certain time (3 months) or so, unless the kid is some kind of medical basket case. In other cases, though, I think abortions should be mandatory: teen age pregnancy, criminals, people chronically on gov’t assistance. I’m in favor of the death penalty but ONLY when there can be no doubt the person did it. For example the person who kidnapped Jaycee Dugard or whatever her name is. I think he should be ripped limb from limb on pay TV. Fed to wild dogs, whatever. Torture him for sport. I’ve never understood the “it makes us just as bad as him”. I think that’s nonsense. He raped and kidnapped an INNOCENT person, we’re killing a GUILTY one. Couldn’t be more different. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/100 "2009-10-17T02:22:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So? A person that breaks into your house doesn’t become a permanent part of the woodwork, but nevertheless we recognize your right to have that person leave on your schedule, not theirs. Ah yes, but if your promptly shoot them you have a strong chance of being arrested. Also a thief and a baby are not morally compatible. > [@bri1600bv](#): > > I think abortion should be severely curtailed after a certain time (3 months) or so, unless the kid is some kind of medical basket case. > > In other cases, though, I think abortions should be mandatory: teen age pregnancy, criminals, people chronically on gov’t assistance. Why? They can be given to foster homes and financial considerations does not justify murder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=6)