# Both Death Penalty and Abortion or Neither **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270 "2009-10-10T03:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/121 "2009-10-19T02:12:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No matter how many women suffer or die in the process, and no matter what happens to the children you force into the world. Women after all are just breeders; and there’s a 50/50 chance that any of those “babies” might be a real human being, a male. > > And yes, that is how sexist your approach is. You are decreeing that women are inferior to mindless creatures; that it doesn’t matter how much women suffer you will force them to act as incubators. I am not denying women freedom! They can use birth control as much as they want but once you have a baby, you have human life, which is sacred. > [@](#): > > Even assuming you actually mean that it doesn’t matter. In the real world, stopping abortion is all about punishing women. A society where abortion is illegal _ **will** _ be a society where women are disdained, exploited and abused. Women would be lucky if they retained the vote, much less get anything more than they have now. That is nonsense. Women having the right to vote and have abortions are unrelated. Early feminists like Susan B. Anthony were pro-life. > [@](#): > > And “a general mobilization of the unemployed into national service” sounds like it would amount to a nationalized version of slavery under another name. _ **Especially** _ under a society vile enough to outlaw abortion. No it’s like the great mobilization efforts during the Great Depression as part of the New Deal. Also anyone able to work and able to get a job (ie not because he can’t find a job) will be denied welfare payments unless he searches for a job. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/122 "2009-10-19T02:30:20Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I am not denying women freedom! They can use birth control as much as they want but once you have a baby, you have human life, which is sacred. The word “sacred” implies, however, that you are basing your decision on religious beliefs, NOT on science. Which is your right, (and I’m not saying that saying that there isn’t a debate), but in our nation, religious beliefs are NOT what laws are based on. If I may ask, how old are you? If I recall, you said you were around fourteen, correct? I only ask because it seems you have a very black and white, very rigid view of the world. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/123 "2009-10-19T02:37:34Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I am not denying women freedom! They can use birth control as much as they want but once you have a baby, you have human life, which is sacred. I thought we were discussing abortion. What does that have to do with delivering sacred babies, or babies in general for that matter? I don’t think any of us are advocating offing babies, other than the occasional sacrifice of the sacred ones. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/124 "2009-10-19T03:22:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I am not denying women freedom! Well, you kinda sorta _are_, or at least you would be if you had the power to implement any of your stubbornly short-sighted ideas. Try an experiment - envision the U.S. ten years after an abortion ban. List every potentially positive outcome you can imagine and I’ll describe a few potential negatives. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/125 "2009-10-19T03:49:42Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I am not denying women freedom! They can use birth control as much as they want but once you have a baby, you have human life, which is sacred. Forcing them to act as brood mares is taking away their freedom. And birth control DOES fail you know. And you can call it a “baby”, “a human life”, and “sacred” all you like, but a fetus is still just a mindless thing. If it is a human life, that just means that some types of human life can morally be ended as a woman desires. If it is sacred, that just means that some sacred things aren’t that important. And calling it a baby just means that some babies are just things. Labels do not change the thing that they label. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No it’s like the great mobilization efforts during the Great Depression as part of the New Deal. In case you haven’t noticed, we are suffering from unemployment. We don’t NEED any “mobilization efforts”. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also anyone able to work and able to get a job (ie not because he can’t find a job) will be denied welfare payments unless he searches for a job. And in the real world that would likely boil down to some right wing bureaucrat cutting off some blind guy’s disability benefits because he “wasn’t trying hard enough”. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/126 "2009-10-20T02:14:51Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > The word “sacred” implies, however, that you are basing your decision on religious beliefs, NOT on science. Which is your right, (and I’m not saying that saying that there isn’t a debate), but in our nation, religious beliefs are NOT what laws are based on. > > If I may ask, how old are you? If I recall, you said you were around fourteen, correct? I only ask because it seems you have a very black and white, very rigid view of the world. Yes I am thirteen. However on morality then where do you draw the line between right and wrong? Should murder be legalized for instance? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Forcing them to act as brood mares is taking away their freedom. And birth control DOES fail you know. > > And you can call it a “baby”, “a human life”, and “sacred” all you like, but a fetus is still just a mindless thing. If it is a human life, that just means that some types of human life can morally be ended as a woman desires. If it is sacred, that just means that some sacred things aren’t that important. And calling it a baby just means that some babies are just things. Labels do not change the thing that they label. That is the exact same dehumanization efforts that can be applied to other groups which the Nazis, Southern slave owners, and the Soviets did. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > In case you haven’t noticed, we are suffering from unemployment. We don’t NEED any “mobilization efforts”. No you don’t seem to understand me, such mobilization efforts would reduce unemployment. > [@](#): > > And in the real world that would likely boil down to some right wing bureaucrat cutting off some blind guy’s disability benefits because he “wasn’t trying hard enough”. Well that should be tried to stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/127 "2009-10-20T02:16:57Z")
Because “abortion” does not automatically equal “murder.” That doesn’t mean you have to support it. However, you should back up your arguments with, say scientific evidence, perhaps? Not “sacred”, or “sin” or what have you. At least, when it comes to the _law_, which is what this thread is supposed to be about, no? I’m not knocking you for your age. Honestly I’m not. I’m just saying that you seem to have a very black and white view of the world, as I said. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/128 "2009-10-20T02:18:01Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Because “abortion” does not automatically equal “murder.” That doesn’t mean you have to support it. However, you DO need to back up your arguments with scientific evidence, for one. Fetuses have beating hearts for starters. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/129 "2009-10-20T02:21:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Fetuses have beating hearts for starters. At what stage? (And I would like a cite backing that up. NOT, a religious and/or anti-abortion cite.) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/130 "2009-10-20T02:27:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > At what stage? (And I would like a cite backing that up. NOT, a religious and/or anti-abortion cite.) Here: [http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/Military\_OBGYN/Textbook/Pregnancy/fetal\_heart\_beat.htm](http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/Military_OBGYN/Textbook/Pregnancy/fetal_heart_beat.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/131 "2009-10-20T02:39:35Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That is the exact same dehumanization efforts that can be applied to other groups which the Nazis, Southern slave owners, and the Soviets did. Nonsense. They dehumanized, abused and killed actual people. Calling something subhuman isn’t dehumanizing when it really IS subhuman. It’s not dehumanizing when I call a dog “just an animal”, or a fetus just a “mindless lump of cells” because dogs really are animals, and a fetus really is a mindless lump of cells. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Fetuses have beating hearts for starters. So do snakes; that doesn’t make killing a snake murder. What makes people of moral significance is their mind; a fetus has none. Killing a fetus is no more immoral than harvesting the organs of someone brain dead, and for the same reason; no one is there. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/132 "2009-10-20T02:43:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. They dehumanized, abused and killed actual people. Calling something subhuman isn’t dehumanizing when it really IS subhuman. It’s not dehumanizing when I call a dog “just an animal”, or a fetus just a “mindless lump of cells” because dogs really are animals, and a fetus really is a mindless lump of cells. > > So do snakes; that doesn’t make killing a snake murder. What makes people of moral significance is their mind; a fetus has none. Killing a fetus is no more immoral than harvesting the organs of someone brain dead, and for the same reason; no one is there. So if you murder a mentally disabled man is it still murder according to your morality? Or what about a baby, he can’t think either. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/133 "2009-10-20T03:11:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > So if you murder a mentally disabled man is it still murder according to your morality? Or what about a baby, he can’t think either. Apples to oranges. And a total strawman as well. **Curtis** , that doesn’t mean a fetus is a baby YET. That means it is on the stage to becoming a baby. At any rate, a fetus =! baby. Not yet. And either way, I think what people are saying, that it’s MY body. (BTW, there are plenty of people who are anti-abortion, but who still believe that abortion should be kept legal) Look, I thought this thread was supposed to be about the death penalty as well – it seems to be a “bait and switch” to express your “abortion is wrong” views. Which, you have every right to believe. But not if you’re going to jerk us around. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/134 "2009-10-20T03:41:27Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Look, I thought this thread was supposed to be about the death penalty as well Sure, it is. Right now, hypothetical mentally ill people are being executed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/135 "2009-10-20T05:08:40Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > So if you murder a mentally disabled man is it still murder according to your morality? If they are as “mentally disabled” as a fetus, then they are essentially brain dead, so yes I’d kill them\*. Not that it would be murder; such a thing isn’t a person, and isn’t even alive in the legal sense. - Assuming there was a reason to; like harvesting their organs because they have a donor card, or because the family asked for life support to be turned off. I’m not going to wander around shooting the brain dead for no particular reason. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/136 "2009-10-20T13:23:19Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > So if you murder a mentally disabled man is it still murder according to your morality? Or what about a baby, he can’t think either. Are you saying that a mentally disabled man or a baby have the same general cognitive abilities as a snake or dog? ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/137 "2009-10-20T14:48:51Z")
**Curtis** while you are outlawing abortions and saving the lives of all these ‘babies’ would you also like to try to save the lives of other innocent people? I’m sure you would. Here is what you do. You pass a law that forces people to donate organs to those that need it. That is if someone in your area needs a transplant and you are a match (records would have to be taken of course) you would be forced to give up that organ so that the other person could live. Now I am sure you agree this is barbaric – no one should be forced to have their health and quality of life ruined to save a stranger. Yet this is the consequence of outlawing abortions, you will be forcing women to have their health and quality of life ruined (for at least 9 months but potentially longer) for a stranger. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/138 "2009-10-20T15:33:55Z")
More and more I think abortion needs to be compared less to the death penalty and more to doctor assisted suicide/euthanasia/chronic illness and pain. Both are wonderful hypotheticals for endless debate which, mostly, has very little to do with the real experiences of actual people who have had to make difficult decisions, or have at least had their eyes opened a bit with some vague experience (a pregnancy scare, kidney stones – I imagine the same person, a stranger, lecturing a terrified woman waiting for the stick to turn blue about what decisions they will and won’t let her make, or telling someone having a root canal that people with chronic pain or illness are just complainers an they should feel lucky to be alive. Even better if it’s a 13-year-old boy!). ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/139 "2009-10-21T02:41:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If they are as “mentally disabled” as a fetus, then they are essentially brain dead, so yes I’d kill them\*. Not that it would be murder; such a thing isn’t a person, and isn’t even alive in the legal sense. > > - Assuming there was a reason to; like harvesting their organs because they have a donor card, or because the family asked for life support to be turned off. I’m not going to wander around shooting the brain dead for no particular reason. You’ve avoided my a part of my question, what about a newborn baby who can’t think. (NOTE: I’m saying this to Der Trihs who believe explicitly that thinking is the definition of human being) > [@martu](#): > > **Curtis** while you are outlawing abortions and saving the lives of all these ‘babies’ would you also like to try to save the lives of other innocent people? I’m sure you would. Here is what you do. You pass a law that forces people to donate organs to those that need it. That is if someone in your area needs a transplant and you are a match (records would have to be taken of course) you would be forced to give up that organ so that the other person could live. > > Now I am sure you agree this is barbaric – no one should be forced to have their health and quality of life ruined to save a stranger. Yet this is the consequence of outlawing abortions, you will be forcing women to have their health and quality of life ruined (for at least 9 months but potentially longer) for a stranger. Yes but if you don’t donate organs to someone and he dies it’s not direct murder but abortion is (again if we consider a fetus to be human). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/140 "2009-10-21T02:52:02Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > You’ve avoided my a part of my question, what about a newborn baby who can’t think. We don’t know for sure if it can or not. The brain isn’t fully functional when born; for example newborns as I recall are actually blind because their primary visual cortex isn’t working ( their eyes track motion with a separate unconscious system; in adults with brain damage this is called blindsight ). Until brain science advances farther we can’t tell if a newborn baby thinks or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=8)