# Both Death Penalty and Abortion or Neither **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270 "2009-10-10T03:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/161 "2009-10-22T17:43:57Z")
I know _I’d_ kill people for a lot less than having them growing inside my body. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/162 "2009-10-22T18:13:07Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > A woman travels abroad. When she returns home she is not pregnant. How do you prosecute? How did you know the woman was pregnant in the first place? Even if you knew she was pregnant when she left the country, how do you prove she got an abortion in Canada? Because Canadian abortion clinics aren’t going to hand over their medical records to US prosecutors just because there’s a law against abortion in the US. > > Or, a woman purchases a drug that is known to cause abortion as a side effect. 9 months later and she hasn’t given birth. How do you prosecute this woman? What’s your evidence? Or she’ll simply claim a miscarriage. In fact that would probably be another affect of outlawing abortion: a rise in “miscarriages.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/163 "2009-10-22T18:17:31Z")
Will she have to claim a miscarriage, or anything at all? The fifth amendment won’t be tossed when the ban comes in, will it? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/164 "2009-10-22T19:50:48Z")
It won’t be women being prosecuted so much, as their doctors, I would imagine. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/165 "2009-10-22T21:33:31Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Nah. There are plenty of people who believe that abortion is murder, but the abortion that they or their wives/girlfriends/daughters want is morally OK. [The only moral abortion is my abortion.](http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml) Plenty, huh? You provide us a highly biased site with a handful of—by their own words----“anecdotes.” So tell me, how would define “plenty” in the larger context? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/166 "2009-10-22T21:36:39Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Why is it a binary thing? Our laws sort of treat it as a binary thing, because that’s easiest. That doesn’t mean that just because we treat it as a binary thing that it therefore must be a binary thing. > > And of course, we recognize all sorts of non-binary gradations of personhood. Some people aren’t allowed to vote, some people aren’t competent to stand trial, some people aren’t allowed to make financial decisions, some people have their movements restricted, and on and on. We had a few hundred year experiment with some of the things you’ve mentioned. I can tell you it ended badly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/167 "2009-10-22T21:40:08Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Plenty, huh? > > You provide us a highly biased site with a handful of—by their own words----“anecdotes.” > > So tell me, how would define “plenty” in the larger context? If you wouldn’t mind, what is it about the pro-life mentality that suggests these cases are rare, i.e. that a significant portion of abortion opponents won’t behave this way? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/168 "2009-10-22T22:01:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If you wouldn’t mind, what is it about the pro-life mentality that suggests these cases are rare, i.e. that a significant portion of abortion opponents won’t behave this way? You know, I don’t know. I’m not a spokesmen for the pro-life group. From my own life experiences it occurs to me that most people have deeply held ideals of one sort or another. From my POV, they become convictions when they are tested and affirmed. But it is no surprise that many people stumble–whether that be fidelity or honesty or abortion. So let me ask you…are you able to provide a credible site to support the implication that “significant portion” of abortion opponents who have unplanned pregnancies have abortions? And isn’t true that if you could provide such a cite (and we both know that no such site exists) it wold only expose–at best—a level of hypocrisy among their ranks? IOW, if I cheat on my wife (especially after proclaiming that infidelity is evil…) is that tantamount to saying that I endorse infidelity? My infidelity may expose my hypocrisy and lack of character, but it doesn’t abort (silly pun intended) the validity of the position. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/169 "2009-10-22T22:05:04Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > IOW, if I cheat on my wife (especially after proclaiming that infidelity is evil…) is that tantamount to saying that I endorse infidelity? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/170 "2009-10-22T22:48:15Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > IOW, if I cheat on my wife (especially after proclaiming that infidelity is evil…) is that tantamount to saying that I endorse infidelity? My infidelity may expose my hypocrisy and lack of character, but it doesn’t abort (silly pun intended) the validity of the position. It’s actually tantamount to you saying that you think you are above morality and believe that you have the right to subjugate the ‘lower’ people to adhere to the morality you yourself spurn. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/171 "2009-10-22T22:49:54Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > So let me ask you…are you able to provide a credible site to support the implication that “significant portion” of abortion opponents who have unplanned pregnancies have abortions? Heck, there are a million or so abortions a year in the U.S. out of a population pool of, what, eighty million women aged 13-45? There’s gotta be quite the overlap. Anyway, my point was that the anecdotes provided in the cite don’t at all strike me as unusual or unlikely. It’s not like citing an anecdote about an alien abduction. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/172 "2009-10-23T02:10:54Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Why? > > As I said above, even if abortion is criminalized, we aren’t going to treat women who have abortions as murderers. Or are we? We will punish and rehabilitate them afterwards. > [@](#): > > And even if we treat women who have abortions as murderers, we still face the tricky problem of tracking them down, arresting them, trying them, convicting them, and sentencing them. > > Even if abortion gets the same penalty as first degree murder, in reality the vast majority of abortion murders will be unprosecuted because we won’t be able to get enough evidence to even bring charges against these murderers, much less convict them. I don’t favour the death penalty on abortionists and abortion getters and jail terms means that as long as there’s enough convincing evidence I’m fine with people being convicted. > [@](#): > > A woman travels abroad. When she returns home she is not pregnant. How do you prosecute? How did you know the woman was pregnant in the first place? Even if you knew she was pregnant when she left the country, how do you prove she got an abortion in Canada? Because Canadian abortion clinics aren’t going to hand over their medical records to US prosecutors just because there’s a law against abortion in the US. > > Or, a woman purchases a drug that is known to cause abortion as a side effect. 9 months later and she hasn’t given birth. How do you prosecute this woman? What’s your evidence? Inference, my friend. If a woman consumes a drug and there’s no baby nine months later anyone smart enough to participate in society will be smart enough to guess what happened. And if it’s in the US we’ll have the medical records and the pharmaceutical records. > [@](#): > > Thing is, under most murder prosecutions there’s either a dead body, or a missing person. To even start an investigation into the murder there’s got to be some reason for you to think a murder has happened in the first place. And the problem for prosecuting abortion as murder is that most women who have illegal abortions will get away with it. And you aren’t going to convince people not to have abortions just by making abortion illegal, just take a look around the world at all the countries where abortion is both illegal and commonplace. > > If you could convince everyone that abortion was murder, then it would be easy to prosecute abortion as murder. But you wouldn’t need to, because nobody would have an abortion in the first place. We have plenty of unpopular laws. Did a lot of Americans like the Civil Rights Act? No but we’ll force them down their throats. Besides if it’s made a crime I think a large majority of people will stop having abortions, look at the USA in 1955, most women didn’t have abortions. > [@](#): > > The other problem for the “abortion is murder” argument is that you’re never going to get a supermajority of Americans to agree. You’re going to need a Constitutional Amendment to ban abortion, even if you packed more conservatives on the Supreme Court and overturned Roe v Wade, that wouldn’t make abortion illegal, it would just make it legal to make abortion illegal. And you know and I know that while there are some states that would make abortion illegal, most states wouldn’t. And so it might be illegal to get an abortion in Alabama, but it’s never going to be illegal in New York. I’d say half and a half for the states. Also I’d favour a Mann Act (prohibiting transfering women across state lines for prostitution) like law for abortion prohibiting women from going across state lines for abortions. > [@](#): > > And so a woman travels from Alabama to New York, and 9 months later she hasn’t given birth. What action should the authorities in Alabama take? Obviously, none. And even if they catch a woman in the act of obtaining an abortion, you know and I know and the people of Alabama know that she’s not going to be prosecuted as a murderer, she’ll be prosecuted for some other crime that’s a lot less serious, because even if the people of Alabama think abortion is murder they still won’t stand for prosecuting it like murder. See above. > [@Algorithm](#): > > Count me in the category of people who remains pro-choice regardless of whether or not abortion “is murder” or otherwise immoral. > > If outlawing “immoral” acts causes more problems than it solves, maybe we ought to adjust our moral compasses. Sigh, while I have some respect for people who are pro-choice because they’re certain that abortion is not murder, your type of moral relativists who’ll do whatever “works” is disgusting and almost wretched. You’re like the character Mr. Thompson or the other “Looters” from _Atlas Shrugged_. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/173 "2009-10-23T02:31:51Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Inference, my friend. If a woman consumes a drug and there’s no baby nine months later anyone smart enough to participate in society will be smart enough to guess what happened. And if it’s in the US we’ll have the medical records and the pharmaceutical records. Ever hear of HIPAA? It’s not so easy obtaining medical records – you’d have to find a reason to supoena them – you can’t just go looking into them willy-nilly. You’d have to prove it WAS an abortion as well, and not just a miscarriage. You’d also have to prove that she was pregnant, and that you KNEW she was pregnant. Good luck. > [@](#): > > Besides if it’s made a crime I think a large majority of people will stop having abortions, look at the USA in 1955, most women didn’t have abortions. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/174 "2009-10-23T02:37:45Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Inference, my friend. If a woman consumes a drug and there’s no baby nine months later anyone smart enough to participate in society will be smart enough to guess what happened. And if it’s in the US we’ll have the medical records and the pharmaceutical records. Convicting on “inference” requires discarding the reasonable doubt standard. Issuing a subpoena for medical records before it’s even know a crime has occurred destroys medical confidentiality. And if a woman, doctor or pharmacist refuses to testify about what they may or may not have done and are convicted on “inference”, forget the fifth amendment. > [@](#): > > We have plenty of unpopular laws. Did a lot of Americans like the Civil Rights Act? No but we’ll force them down their throats. Besides if it’s made a crime I think a large majority of people will stop having abortions, look at the USA in 1955, most women didn’t have abortions. And in 1955, many blacks couldn’t vote. It took the, duh, Civil Rights Acts to change that. A far better analogy for an abortion ban would be Prohibition, where on dubious moral grounds, Americans were legally deprived of something they wanted. I suggest you read up on how well that worked. > [@](#): > > I’d say half and a half for the states. Also I’d favour a Mann Act (prohibiting transfering women across state lines for prostitution) like law for abortion prohibiting women from going across state lines for abortions. How charmingly neanderthal. Instead of turning the U.S. into a police state, you can turn it into fifty little police states. Do the border guards get watchtowers? Will barbed wire be strung along the state borders? > [@](#): > > Sigh, while I have some respect for people who are pro-choice because they’re certain that abortion is not murder, your type of moral relativists who’ll do whatever “works” is disgusting and almost wretched. You’re like the character Mr. Thompson or the other “Looters” from _Atlas Shrugged_. You’re the one advocating intrusive governmental interference into the lives of individuals, just like Wesley Mouch whining that he needed wider powers. I invite any American woman to tell you to get the hell out of her way. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/175 "2009-10-23T02:43:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Ever hear of HIPAA? It’s not so easy obtaining medical records – you’d have to find a reason to supoena them – you can’t just go looking into them willy-nilly. > You’d have to prove it WAS an abortion as well, and not just a miscarriage. You’d also have to prove that she was pregnant, and that you KNEW she was pregnant. Good luck. I suppose I cannot prove all abortions that happened but it’s the same thing I suppose with medical marijuana usage. Much marijuana usage is actually for non-medical purposes. > [@](#): > > Cite? Sorry can’t find statistics by Google search. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/176 "2009-10-23T02:44:35Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I suppose I cannot prove all abortions that happened but it’s the same thing I suppose with medical marijuana usage. Much marijuana usage is actually for non-medical purposes. Then you have no case to prosecute. > [@](#): > > Sorry can’t find statistics by Google search. Then if you cannot back your statements up, perhaps you shouldn’t be using them as arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/177 "2009-10-23T02:50:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Then you have no case to prosecute. > OTE] Yes but that’s life I suppose at least until we develop technology to monitor every human being with indvidual AIs and scan their brain waves constantly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/178 "2009-10-23T02:57:16Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yes but that’s life I suppose at least until we develop technology to monitor every human being with indvidual AIs and scan their brain waves constantly. You can choose to believe that you’re joking, but if such tech existed, someone would be agitating for its use and probably on the same “think of the children!” basis. It’s only with that pesky eternal vigilance stuff that we keep such efforts at bay. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/179 "2009-10-23T02:59:38Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Yes but that’s life I suppose at least until we develop technology to monitor every human being with individual AIs and scan their brain waves constantly. So basically your idea of a more moral society is a surveillance society that would make _1984_ look liberal? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270/180 "2009-10-23T03:01:38Z")
That and if such technology existed, one could create artificial wombs, and perhaps some women would then opt to have their’s up for adoption. (Mind you, abortion should still, and always remain legal) ETA: **Der Trihs** , I think he’s being sarcastic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-death-penalty-and-abortion-or-neither/513270.md?page=10)