# "Both sides are the same!" is a dogmatic position immune from facts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743 "2017-08-15T20:58:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/181 "2017-08-17T20:00:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > On the matter of Charlottesville, that may have been true. But in a broader sense, [Antifa is a group known to throw excrement, urine, and bricks at people and encourage stabbings.](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/trump-supporters-portland/) It isn’t unreasonable for a third-party observer to think, “Well, Antifa is promoting a hate of their own, too.” The defining characteristic of Antifa is literally opposing fascism, that’s it. There are non-violent anti-fascists, democratic anti-fascists, and yes, anarchistic and violent anti-fascists. To say they’re promoting hate when their one common characteristic is opposing the hateful, genocidal fascism that is undergoing a resurgence, seems pretty silly. In terms of those who define themselves as Antifa, if you oppose fascism and actually act against it in any way, they would also call you Antifa. I saw a bunch of self-proclaimed and vocal Antifa calling Romney Antifa after [this tweet](https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/897612532386607104). It is purposely inclusive because _everyone_ should be anti-fascist. On the other hand, someone who wants to take their label and change it to mean a certain subset of Antifa to cast them all as hateful and violent, you won’t be happy with the definition I posted. Fascists are really good at taking advantage of the free speech that they will then suppress if they gain control, which is one of the ways they’ve convinced the US media to call them alt-right instead of the fascist, racist, white supremacist, neo-Confederate, or neo-Nazis that they are. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/182 "2017-08-17T20:09:26Z")
Philosophically, Antifa may be about “opposing hate.” But when one reads about, or sees, Antifa hurling piss and excrement at people, and also encouraging stabbings, it requires a very difficult set of mental gymnastics to think, \*“Well, they are throwing feces at people and encouraging stabbings, but deep down, they’re all about fighting against hate.” \*A set of mental gymnastics that it is unreasonable to expect the American public at large to perform in their mind. That is the crux of the issue. No matter how much a movement may be, philosophically, about “opposing hate,” if its outward tactics \*appear \*hateful, the movement will \*appear \*hateful. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/183 "2017-08-17T20:24:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That is the crux of the issue. No matter how much a movement may be, philosophically, about “opposing hate,” if its outward tactics \*appear \*hateful, the movement will \*appear \*hateful. The thing is Antifa can barely be called a coherent movement…if at all. They have no singular website. No fundraising. No espoused political platform. Antifa is not a coherent entity in any way, shape or form. Anyone can use the term and the term is applied to anyone the right would like to smear. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/184 "2017-08-17T20:51:08Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > It seems reasonable to me to say that if someone implies something with their words, they have said it. They may have said it implicitly, or said it stealthily, or said it cleverly, but so far as they have communicated the idea with their speech it seems reasonable to me to say they said it. Whether perceived implications actually exist is of course something to debate about, but I don’t think it’s a line to draw across whether it’s been “said” or not. Nope. Because not everyone shares the same belief. “He said X,” is a factual claim. The quote may be displayed to confirm or refute the claim. “He implied X,” is similarly a clear assertion that you’re arguing an implication; you are going to point to words that say Y and then argue that their meaning is X. But using “He said X,” when what you’re really claiming is “He said Y and that implies X,” is not supportable. On this very board we’ve had people claim their personal certainty in dog whistles, their confidence that “thug” is a racial slur, and we’ve seen Washington Post columnists solemnly assert their conviction that ‘writing symphonies’ unambiguously means white nationalist exclusion. So, no chance. “He said X,” should refer to his words," and “He implied X,” should refer to what he didn’t say but what you’re confident he meant. You are, of course, free to proceed however you wish. Just as I am free to highlight every instance in which you claim something was “said,” and point out that it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/185 "2017-08-17T20:53:52Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I take it back then and my post was not sloppy/loose language. > > I said Trump called Mexican immigrants rapists which he did. I also provided a link to a story about him saying that. Yes. And I pointed out that his statement, as spoken, was factual. And I scored a bazillion Internet points. So the score is now 1 bazillion to zero. You better tighten up your game, son. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/186 "2017-08-17T20:56:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Right. Some posters think that words mean whatever he or she says they mean, similar to Humpty Dumpty. Yes. Hey, I wonder if **Whack-a-Mole** was really saying that he secretly wishes he could admit I’m right, but he’d lose so much liberal credibility that he just can’t? That’s probably what he said. So when I report this conversation in the future, that’s what I should say. Right? Because words mean what I want them to mean. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/187 "2017-08-17T20:59:43Z")
Verbal language is the only language to consider? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/188 "2017-08-17T21:06:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There were lots of things Trump said that were false, starting with his claim that the Mexican Government is somehow complicit in sending criminals over the border. That’s how he led off with his tirade. But yes, I pretty much agree with what you posted there, and I don’t think we need to infer that at all. That’s what he said. The “bigoted” part might be hard to prove… I’d have to go back and read or see the whole thing again, but I don’t think that matters all that much. I’m not sure how you prove “bigoted” – he made a false and very negative statement about a large group based on their ethnic background… that seems pretty close to the simplest form of bigotry, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/189 "2017-08-17T21:10:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I take it back then and my post was not sloppy/loose language. > > I said Trump called Mexican immigrants rapists which he did. I also provided a link to a story about him saying that. > > Your nitpick was to point out that there are indeed some Mexican immigrant rapists so therefore Trump was right. > > This is on you being pedantic to the extreme in order to win some internet points. > > What Trump said was widely reported and common knowledge. His meaning in that statement and obvious animus towards Mexican immigrants is not in dispute. Not even Trump disputes it. It is disingenuous of you to suggest that Trump was really only telling the obvious truth as if you were unaware of Trump’s comments on this topic or his desire to build a wall. Funny thing about that “widely reported” part. If you read the [Washington Post fact check](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20150709 __Rapists___ Criminals__Checking_Trump_s_facts.html) article, they clearly interpreted his statement as meaning that illegal immigrants from Mexico commit crime at a higher (perhaps much higher) rate than US citizens. They do not interpret it to mean that all Mexicans are rapist or even that all illegal immigrants from Mexico are rapists. Now, if you are simply claiming that Trump said some, not all, Mexican immigrants were rapists, then we have no quarrel and I would just wonder why you would be upset about him making a factual statement. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/190 "2017-08-17T21:19:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Funny thing about that “widely reported” part. If you read the [Washington Post fact check](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20150709 __Rapists___ Criminals__Checking_Trump_s_facts.html) article, they clearly interpreted his statement as meaning that illegal immigrants from Mexico commit crime at a higher (perhaps much higher) rate than US citizens. They do not interpret it to mean that all Mexicans are rapist or even that all illegal immigrants from Mexico are rapists. Not the one you are replying at, but I pointed awhile ago that that was indeed the problem, Trump was a cad for not saying that “most” Mexicans were good. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/191 "2017-08-17T21:31:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. And I pointed out that his statement, as spoken, was factual. > > And I scored a bazillion Internet points. > > So the score is now 1 bazillion to zero. > > You better tighten up your game, son. So I said something factual and you agree that I did. And **John Mace** something, something ABORTION! The debate skills of the two of you is dizzying to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/192 "2017-08-17T21:40:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So I said something factual and you agree that I did. > > And **John Mace** something, something ABORTION! > > The debate skills of the two of you is dizzying to say the least. If you have this much difficulty following along, I’d be happy to help you by PM so as not to embarrass you. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/193 "2017-08-17T21:41:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Funny thing about that “widely reported” part. If you read the [Washington Post fact check](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20150709 __Rapists___ Criminals__Checking_Trump_s_facts.html) article, they clearly interpreted his statement as meaning that illegal immigrants from Mexico commit crime at a higher (perhaps much higher) rate than US citizens. They do not interpret it to mean that all Mexicans are rapist or even that all illegal immigrants from Mexico are rapists. Phew. Good thing I did not say that then. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/194 "2017-08-17T21:43:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Verbal language is the only language to consider? Not at all. But verbal language is the language invoked by the word, “said.” Trump may have used his skills at interpretive dance or watercolor to convey other messages, but those message would not be described by asserting that Trump said, “I hate CNN,” merely because this was the impression you got from his Rose Garden modern ballet. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/195 "2017-08-17T21:45:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Funny thing about that “widely reported” part. If you read the [Washington Post fact check](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/20150709 __Rapists___ Criminals__Checking_Trump_s_facts.html) article, they clearly interpreted his statement as meaning that illegal immigrants from Mexico commit crime at a higher (perhaps much higher) rate than US citizens. They do not interpret it to mean that all Mexicans are rapist or even that all illegal immigrants from Mexico are rapists. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Phew. > > Good thing I did not say that then. Yes. “Phew.” > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What Trump said was **widely reported** and common knowledge. His meaning in that statement and obvious animus towards Mexican immigrants is not in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/196 "2017-08-17T21:46:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Phew. > > Good thing I did not say that then. Holy bad editing, Batman. I don’t really see much value in continuing this discussion if you’re going to ignore the rest of that post where I asked if you meant something else. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/197 "2017-08-17T21:48:38Z")
I know I participated in it briefly, but please let’s move away from the Trump statement about Mexican immigrants. Ostensibly this thread is about partisanship, demonizing opponents, equivalence of opposing parties, etc. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/198 "2017-08-17T21:56:58Z")
You might as well just close the thread, then. Or move it to IMHO. It’s impossible to debate this “in general” without discussing the particulars. Call me guilty for asking someone to “prove it”, but isn’t that what we’re supposed to do in GD? Prove things? ETA: Oops. That was supposed to be a “report this post” reply, not a post to the thread. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/199 "2017-08-17T22:31:03Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > “Both sides are the same” is a dogmatic view. It doesn’t require you to actually look at the specifics of what’s going on in that political climate and make value judgements. You can simply say “Both sides are the same, you’re too blind to see it, but I’m not, I’m smart and cynical and cool” while patting yourself on the back regardless of what’s actually going on. To be fair, this is not the motivation of everyone who tries to appear non-partisan - others actually feel like they’re being more careful or more nuanced, rather than patting themselves on the back while consdecending to you - but they still serve the same purpose to normalize and excuse the behavior of the worse side. > > And to these people, it doesn’t matter if one side has become far more radicalized over the decades, or that they serve the interest of the average American less and less. “Both sides are the same” is always going to be the position no matter how both sides act. > > Which means they are essentially acting on behalf of the side who has the worse behavior. Normalizing and accepting it. Deflecting criticism from the other side. When one side proposes a “feed all puppies and give them toys” act, and the other proposes a “stomp all puppies to death” act, we will have people bending over backwards to tell us that everyone is the same and it’s just equal amounts of partisanship on either side blinding them to it. I think this is the thrust of the OP. I’m trying to ignore some of the other generalizations to not get bogged down in quibbles, like ‘anyone with a brain can see…’ or ‘anyone with objectivity can see’. I think it really depends on what is meant by “the same”. Obviously people are individuals, so their actions are unique to them and in given metrics, it’s unlikely two people or two actions will be exactly the same level of badness or goodness. I think when people make the claim that both sides are the same, they are saying that both sides engage in behavior sufficiently similar to make trying to distinguish them not worth the effort. This is opposed to the idea that both sides are doing exactly the same thing. Making this type of declaration is not to say that the person making it is non-partisan either. Because of that, I think it would be critically important to identify what is being compared and saying that they are essentially the same. If one kid steals a car, and the other commits credit card fraud, well, those are different, but both are bad enough that it would be fair to criticize both in similar ways. Your example of feeding puppies vs. stomping them to death would be a situation where saying both are the same is not consistent. When the difference is one of degree, I think it’s fair to generalize at times and say both are the same. When it is a difference in kind, then it would not be fair to generalize about both being the same. You say that Gingrich was the start of demonizing the opposition. I would say this is a difference in degree, rather than in kind. Politicians have always demonized their opponents to some degree. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/200 "2017-08-18T03:34:54Z")
I found this post in another thread, and I thought it belonged here: > [@Butt-Hurt Trump Takes to Twitter Again (Part 1)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butt-hurt-trump-takes-to-twitter-again-part-1/772428/2444): > > Jim Jeffries summed up the “many sides” comment perfectly: > > "If a doctor finds a cancer in my left testicle, I don’t say, ‘I don’t have cancer! My left testicle has cancer. That’s not me.’ But it is me! I may not like that part of me, but it’s me. I don’t blame my right testicle and claim there’s testicle problems on both sides. No, instead we cut that cancer out as quickly and as aggressively as possible, and hope it doesn’t come back.” You’ve got a bad nut, Republicans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743.md?page=11)