# "Both sides are the same!" is a dogmatic position immune from facts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743 "2017-08-15T20:58:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/61 "2017-08-16T03:43:57Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > How about elected by an actual majority of voters? > > Losing by _millions_ but “winning” because we want white votes to matter more than minority votes (which is what the Electoral College _does_) can hardly be called a democracy. Ethnocracy perhaps, but Democracy? Don’t make me puke. This type of argument illustrates what I believe is a type of argument which hurls accusations of racism or bigotry with clearly no support. You realize that the Electoral College was formed in 1787 when blacks could not vote at all, right? Since blacks could not vote, the particular method of selecting a president clearly had no racial motivation. The EC was followed during the entire time when some states began allowing free blacks to vote, and the abolition of slavery, and universal male suffrage. Even after universal male suffrage, the EC survived when male blacks were effectively denied the right to vote. Clearly the EC did not concern itself with suppressing black votes. Even when blacks were effectively given the right to vote, most voted Republican. It has only been since the 1960s that blacks are largely congregated in urban areas and vote largely Democratic. However, according to you, any argument for keeping the over 200 year old method of selecting the President is obviously, stated as a fact without support, a racist and bigoted argument. Fail. Not only fail, but a scurrilous insult. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/62 "2017-08-16T03:51:47Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > This type of argument illustrates what I believe is a type of argument which hurls accusations of racism or bigotry with clearly no support. > > You realize that the Electoral College was formed in 1787 when blacks could not vote at all, right? Since blacks could not vote, the particular method of selecting a president clearly had no racial motivation. I forgot to go back and spell out nuance. I thought italics was enough. I said what the Electoral College _does_ - as in the effect it had as of last election - and showed some mathematics demonstrating that. You’re arguing about what it may or may not have been _intended for_ which is a different matter entirely. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/63 "2017-08-16T03:55:47Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Even when blacks were effectively given the right to vote, most voted Republican. It has only been since the 1960s that blacks are largely congregated in urban areas and vote largely Democratic. I seem to recall something else happening in the 60s, something that affected the racial demographics in regards to who was democrat or republican. Can you help me out? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/64 "2017-08-16T04:26:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > . . . correct situation. . . Current situation. I need more sleep. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/65 "2017-08-16T04:29:33Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > As far as I can tell, Chirac claims that this was said on a conversation to him, and there is a record of him calling a university to get more information about “gog and magog”, which supports the claim. There’s no recording or other documented proof. But it does seem plausible for a guy that said he personally talks to god to make decisions - why not? > > That said, it’s not really relevant to the conversation here. I’d be happy to pretend I never said it. Wait a minute. If you can’t back up your claim, why did you make it in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/66 "2017-08-16T04:33:44Z")
Because it was an offhanded remark meant to simply add to and emphasize my statement, but wasn’t necesary to what I had to say. You can remove the statement completely and my argument still stands. I didn’t know it was controversial. I read it in the Guardian, and they’re pretty reputable. It was only after it was challenged that I learned that it was controversial. Have you never made a similar inconsequential mistake? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/67 "2017-08-16T05:17:12Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Because it was an offhanded remark meant to simply add to and emphasize my statement, but wasn’t necesary to what I had to say. This hardly seems like an offhanded remark: > [@](#): > > But they were comparing Bush, the guy who lied to create a war in which millions were killed or displaced **in order to try to fulfill biblical prophecy to destroy the world (yes, this is actually true, though not widely known)** to a guy who’d done nothing in the public eye but be inspiring and positive. You were insisting that something was true, without any evidence. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/68 "2017-08-16T05:22:49Z")
No, in fact, I was not. When challenged on it I tried to substantiate it, and when I realized it was controversial I just said forget about it. You can remove the offending words from what I said and the meaning of the statement does not change. He’s still worth hating because he started a war that massively damaged the reputation of the United States, cost us in blood and treasure, and killed and displaced a whole bunch of Iraqis. The religious nutjobbery isn’t necesary to make my point. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/69 "2017-08-16T07:29:42Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > “Both sides are the same!” is a dogmatic position immune from facts > > If your position will always be “both sides are the same!” then you’re doing the work of whichever side is worse to excuse and justify their behavior. Excellent post, **SenorBeef**. I’ve excerpted just the “both sides are the same!” because it seems such a good summary of the first response in thread: > [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree. I’d argue that the treatment of Robert Bork preceded Newt Gingrich’s reign and was the true beginning of the current process. > > I’d also argue that Bush 43 was the target of absurd accusations before Obama was. > > It seems to me you fail to acknowledge the existence of these examples. [Newt](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/10347951/US-shutdown-1995-flashback-when-Newt-Gingrich-was-snubbed-on-Air-Force-One.html) [Gingrich](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/01/where-crybaby-gingrich-meme-came/333431/). :eek: > [@](#): > > So Gingrich, in his rage [at being seated _in the back_ of Air Force One], drafted two resolutions that forced Clinton to bring the federal government to a grinding halt. > > The extraordinary behind-the-scenes tale Gingrich told yesterday morning at a Christian Science Monitor breakfast is either comedy or tragedy, or junior high school cafeteria intrigue, take your pick. It surely was not what you expect to hear from the stewards of your government. What about Karl Rove? Who’s your _Tu Quoque_ for him, **Bricker**? Or is he still your GOP hero; the fact the Democrats don’t have their own Karl Rove is why the Dems are inferior? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/70 "2017-08-16T10:30:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [Newt](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/10347951/US-shutdown-1995-flashback-when-Newt-Gingrich-was-snubbed-on-Air-Force-One.html) [Gingrich](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/01/where-crybaby-gingrich-meme-came/333431/). :eek: > > What about Karl Rove? Who’s your _Tu Quoque_ for him, **Bricker**? Or is he still your GOP hero; the fact the Democrats don’t have their own Karl Rove is why the Dems are inferior? I won’t be replying to you ever again. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/71 "2017-08-16T12:01:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree. I’d argue that the treatment of Robert Bork preceded Newt Gingrich’s reign and was the true beginning of the current process. > > I’d also argue that Bush 43 was the target of absurd accusations before Obama was. > > It seems to me you fail to acknowledge the existence of these examples. I think the difference is that the proliferation of new media channels gave the right wing a voice it didn’t have before. To some degree, you could argue that it provided a way of balancing the coverage, which is not unreasonable in and of itself. But it has evolved over time into a propaganda machine that distorts reality intentionally. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/72 "2017-08-16T12:30:57Z")
Both sides are not the same. Your side is worse. My side is working for the good of the country. Your side is trying to tear it down. Anything bad my side does is insignificant and irrelevant. Anything bad your side does shows your basic evil. My side was taken out of context. Your side lied deliberately. The media on your side is biased and deliberately deceptive. The media on my side is objectively honest. None of the extremists on my side can be fairly associated with my side - they are a fringe element. All the extremists on your side represent the heart of your values, desires and tactics. My side is right. Your side is wrong. They are not equal. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/73 "2017-08-16T13:22:51Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Yes, winning the Ethnocracy Games certainly made him legitimate from the perspective of an advocate for Democracy… how? > [Rhode Island Demographics](https://www.infoplease.com/us/comprehensive-census-data-state/demographic-statistics-261) > [California Demographics](https://www.infoplease.com/us/california/demographic-statistics-237) > California Population: 33,871,648 > Rhode Island Population: 1,048,319 > CA/RI Population Ratio: 32.31 > CA/RI Electoral College Ratio: 13.75 > > (97% White) Rhode Islander vs (53% Minority) California Vote Ratio: 2.35 > > It may not have been originally intended to work that way, but at present the electoral college **very much** amplifies white voter’s elective power over that of minorities. Rural states are overwhelmingly white states, and rural states are those with disproportionate voting power. > > Clearly I’m not the one who is misinformed. Uh, Rhode Island was 76% non-Latino white, and 81% white overall, not “97%”. And that was in 2010 so I’d guess the figures are lower now. They’re also a reliable Democratic state although less so in 2016 than in the past. You’re not entirely wrong overall but RI is a weird example. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/74 "2017-08-16T14:16:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Both sides are not the same. Your side is worse. > > My side is working for the good of the country. Your side is trying to tear it down. Anything bad my side does is insignificant and irrelevant. Anything bad your side does shows your basic evil. > > My side was taken out of context. Your side lied deliberately. The media on your side is biased and deliberately deceptive. The media on my side is objectively honest. None of the extremists on my side can be fairly associated with my side - they are a fringe element. All the extremists on your side represent the heart of your values, desires and tactics. > > My side is right. Your side is wrong. They are not equal. > > Regards, > Shodan [From the 2012 election:](http://reason.com/archives/2012/08/20/the-wrong-side-absolutely-must-not-win) ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/75 "2017-08-16T14:32:59Z")
I think it’s pretty obvious both sides were responsible for the violence. The extremes of both sides are hate groups in their own way. Yes the alt-right group brought deplorable ideas with them and invaded a peaceful little city, but too many of the counter-protesters came looking to obstruct free speech and fight. As soon as you resort to physical violence, you have stooped to your opponent’s level. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/76 "2017-08-16T14:55:27Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Just what is the Democratic equivalent of “our entire platform is meant to make this a one term president?” Isn’t that their platform today? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/77 "2017-08-16T15:52:02Z")
Clearly the beginning of the current incivility began with Richard Nixon’s [smear campaign](http://www.thedailybeast.com/tricky-dick-vs-the-pink-lady) against Helen Gahagan Douglas. > [@](#): > > In a carefully orchestrated whispering campaign of smear, fear, and innuendo that would go down in American history as the dirtiest ever—while also becoming the model for the next half-century and beyond—Nixon exploited America’s xenophobic suspicions and reflexive chauvinism with devastating consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/78 "2017-08-16T15:57:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Both sides are not the same. Your side is worse. > > My side is working for the good of the country. Your side is trying to tear it down. Anything bad my side does is insignificant and irrelevant. Anything bad your side does shows your basic evil. > > My side was taken out of context. Your side lied deliberately. The media on your side is biased and deliberately deceptive. The media on my side is objectively honest. None of the extremists on my side can be fairly associated with my side - they are a fringe element. All the extremists on your side represent the heart of your values, desires and tactics. > > My side is right. Your side is wrong. They are not equal. > > Regards, > Shodan Whoa, Shodan. I had no idea you had turned into a liberal Democrat. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/79 "2017-08-16T16:08:40Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Whoa, Shodan. I had no idea you had turned into a liberal Democrat. 🙂 He’s just pushing the dogma instead of actually talking about it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/80 "2017-08-16T16:14:00Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > I think it’s pretty obvious both sides were responsible for the violence. The extremes of both sides are hate groups in their own way. Yes the alt-right group brought deplorable ideas with them and invaded a peaceful little city, but too many of the counter-protesters came looking to obstruct free speech and fight. As soon as you resort to physical violence, you have stooped to your opponent’s level. I agree. It’s pretty obvious to anyone who is objective about it and Trump was simply speaking the truth. You are not allowed to do that anymore. If I know that a guy is beating his wife, and I invade his home and lynch him from a tree in the backyard for being a wife beater, is there a way to condemn my actions without appearing like you support domestic battery? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743.md?page=5)