# "Both sides are the same!" is a dogmatic position immune from facts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743 "2017-08-15T20:58:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/101 "2017-08-16T22:38:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That all sounds great and very even handed. > > Unfortunately that is not how it is today. One side is demonstrably, provably worse than the other side and what you wrote is a false equivalence. Claiming false equivalence doesn’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/102 "2017-08-16T23:05:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Claiming false equivalence doesn’t make it so. Claiming that there is some sort of magical “balance” that just happens automatically doesn’t make it so…and that is the original claim/excuse that needs to be proven, especially when it is almost an automatic(and usually vague and uncited) response when a specific claim is made about some person or group of people. “They do it too!” and/or “Both sides do it” are reflex responses that need to be backed up, or dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/103 "2017-08-17T00:11:51Z")
Looks like this thread is perfect proof of the OP’s assertions. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/104 "2017-08-17T00:18:29Z")
Small brain: Capitalism and imperialism cause alienation. Big brain: SJWs caused a reactionary backlash. Galaxy brain: Russia hacked America and made them racist. Universe brain: Democrats being mean to Bork turned Republicans into Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/105 "2017-08-17T00:23:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Impossible to prove, mainly because “bad” and “good” are subjective terms. But if you really think you can, let’s see your proof. 😉 > [@octopus](#): > > Claiming false equivalence doesn’t make it so. I am not talking about whether blue is a nicer color than red. It is one thing to agree there is a problem while disagreeing about the solution. It is something else entirely when the problem can’t even be agreed upon. I am talking about our president who thinks [grabbing women by their pussy against their will](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/donald-trump-tape-transcript.html?mcubz=3) is something to brag about. I am talking about a [president who claims Mexican immigrants are rapists](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/02/donald-trump-racist-claims-mexico-rapes). I am talking about a president who [supports](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-defends-white-nationalist-protesters-some-very-fine-people-on-both-sides/537012/) people who chant, [“Jews will not replace us!” and “Blood and soil!”](https://youtu.be/RIrcB1sAN8I?t=23). I am talking about a party of science denial to the point they try to [ban climate change by law](https://www.livescience.com/50085-states-outlaw-climate-change.html). I can keep going but I hope you see my point. What’s more, this is not just pointing to one side’s lunatic fringe (because yeah, both sides have got them). This is pointing to the people in power. The president of the United States and state legislatures. The lunatics are running the asylum and their brand of crazy is in no way comparable to the “other side’s” crazy. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/106 "2017-08-17T01:47:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yeah, it is like saying that water is wet. 🙂 As told many times before, one has to look at history and what one side wants and does (also looking at history and the present here) is that allows many that look at the recent incident to say that both sides are \*\*not \*\*the same here. > > Violence indeed has no place there, and anyone resorting to it should be arrested, but now that violence took place we have to call out to the ones that used, besides violence, [deadly force to defend a very violent past](https://images.dailykos.com/images/436856/large/BlameBothSides.jpg). What each side _wants_ is irrelevant. Words are almost entirely legal and protected by the first amendment, violent actions are not legal except under certain circumstances such as self defense. If Bob says he thinks Ken and all like him should leave the country, are you allowed to hit Bob? If Bob says he wants to kill Ken, are you allowed to hit Bob? If Bob is a confirmed murderer, are you then allowed to hit Bob? The legal and societal answer to all those questions is no. Two wrongs don’t make a right. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/107 "2017-08-17T01:55:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Claiming that there is some sort of magical “balance” that just happens automatically doesn’t make it so…and that is the original claim/excuse that needs to be proven, especially when it is almost an automatic(and usually vague and uncited) response when a specific claim is made about some person or group of people. > > “They do it too!” and/or “Both sides do it” are reflex responses that need to be backed up, or dismissed. Ok. Then what’s “it?” Let’s start with that. Specifically, what is the original critique, and against whom is it made? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/108 "2017-08-17T02:43:17Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > What each side _wants_ is irrelevant. Words are almost entirely legal and protected by the first amendment, violent actions are not legal except under certain circumstances such as self defense. As the images I linked at the end showed, I think your opinion here is the irrelevant one. > [@control-z](#): > > If Bob says he thinks Ken and all like him should leave the country, are you allowed to hit Bob? If Bob says he wants to kill Ken, are you allowed to hit Bob? If Bob is a confirmed murderer, are you then allowed to hit Bob? The legal and societal answer to all those questions is no. Two wrongs don’t make a right. “Bob” killed and wounded many others. As it was pointed before, once bob reaches for violence yes, we should hit and hard. As for the ones that are indeed supporting ideologies that promote racism, and genocide sure, they have the right to speak, because I know that then their employers that have to also cater to the ones that are targets of their racism and genocidal ideas have the right to fire them then. It has to said here that very concerted efforts like those ones, besides public shame, ended the American Nazi efforts in the 1930’s. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/109 "2017-08-17T12:25:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If one side does something wrong, why is it more desirable to seek moral equivalence than to fix the problem? It’s not. When I point out where your side is wrong, you should fix it. And not talk about my side at all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/110 "2017-08-17T13:39:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am not talking about whether blue is a nicer color than red. > > It is one thing to agree there is a problem while disagreeing about the solution. It is something else entirely when the problem can’t even be agreed upon. > > I am talking about our president who thinks [grabbing women by their pussy against their will](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/donald-trump-tape-transcript.html?mcubz=3) is something to brag about. > > I am talking about a [president who claims Mexican immigrants are rapists](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/02/donald-trump-racist-claims-mexico-rapes). > > I am talking about a president who [supports](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/trump-defends-white-nationalist-protesters-some-very-fine-people-on-both-sides/537012/) people who chant, [“Jews will not replace us!” and “Blood and soil!”](https://youtu.be/RIrcB1sAN8I?t=23). > > I am talking about a party of science denial to the point they try to [ban climate change by law](https://www.livescience.com/50085-states-outlaw-climate-change.html). > > I can keep going but I hope you see my point. What’s more, this is not just pointing to one side’s lunatic fringe (because yeah, both sides have got them). This is pointing to the people in power. The president of the United States and state legislatures. > > The lunatics are running the asylum and their brand of crazy is in no way comparable to the “other side’s” crazy. I was afraid you would attempt to try. #sad. Besides the fact that your items #2 and #3 are factually incorrect, the other side is going to start off with “When you’re creating laws that allow ~1M unborn babies per year to be killed, it’s hard to get worse than that.” They think killing unborn babies is a terrible evil, even if you and I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/111 "2017-08-17T13:56:08Z")
My side defends basic human rights. Your side wants to take those rights away. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/112 "2017-08-17T14:12:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I was afraid you would attempt to try. #sad. > > Besides the fact that your items #2 and #3 are factually incorrect, the other side is going to start off with “When you’re creating laws that allow ~1M unborn babies per year to be killed, it’s hard to get worse than that.” They think killing unborn babies is a terrible evil, even if you and I don’t. I do not see what is sad about my post and I don’t see you proving #2 and #3 are factually incorrect and I do not see where I mentioned abortion. #sad ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/113 "2017-08-17T14:31:52Z")
[A funny article](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-violence-on-both-sides-twitter-meme-charlottesville_us_59949116e4b0acc593e4a641) about various twitters reacting to this “violence on both sides” nonsense. A few of my favorites are: “Sure, the cancer was aggressive. But the chemotherapy was also very aggressive. There was aggression on both sides” “The US soldiers who fought Hitler were very, very violent. So there’s clearly fault on both sides.” “I think Darth Vader is evil, but several of those storm troopers were fine people.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/114 "2017-08-17T14:42:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do not see what is sad about my post and I don’t see you proving #2 and #3 are factually incorrect and I do not see where I mentioned abortion. #sad Trump’s quote included, “…and when you’re a star, they let you do it.” Trump did not say he did any grabbing “against their will.” Trump on Mexicans, the actual quote: “They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” So what Trump said is that SOME Mexicans are rapists. Your version removes the qualifier “some.” It leaves you complaining about an accurate statement of Trump’s: some Mexican immigrants are rapists. [Cite.](http://www.recordonline.com/article/20150507/NEWS/150509477) ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/115 "2017-08-17T14:50:38Z")
Have we considered that Trump may have used the wrong “they’re” in the quote? It was a spoken phrase, maybe he meant \*their rapists. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/116 "2017-08-17T14:51:22Z")
My side should be judged on our intentions, which are good. Your side should be judged on your intentions, which are bad. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/117 "2017-08-17T14:54:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Trump’s quote included, “…and when you’re a star, they let you do it.” Trump did not say he did any grabbing “against their will.” > > Trump on Mexicans, the actual quote: “They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” So what Trump said is that SOME Mexicans are rapists. Your version removes the qualifier “some.” It leaves you complaining about an accurate statement of Trump’s: some Mexican immigrants are rapists. [Cite.](http://www.recordonline.com/article/20150507/NEWS/150509477) Exactly. Thanks. The #sad is that we’ve been over this many, many times already. What Trump said in each of those cases was _no bueno_. No need to spread a false narrative which makes them seem even worse. **Mr. Mole** : Why would you have needed to mention abortion in order for the other side to bring it up? Makes no sense. It is their argument, not yours. You think abortion is OK. They do not. Neither side is objectively correct. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/118 "2017-08-17T14:56:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > My side should be judged on our intentions, which are good. Your side should be judged on your intentions, which are bad. > > Regards, > Shodan What do you think Trump’s intentions were when it looked like he was trying to equate both sides? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/119 "2017-08-17T15:04:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Trump’s quote included, “…and when you’re a star, they let you do it.” Trump did not say he did any grabbing “against their will.” And the CEO says, “And when you’re their boss, they let you do it.” Having power over someone, and them “letting you do it” does not mean that all of the things that they “let you do” are things that are not against their will. > [@](#): > > Trump on Mexicans, the actual quote: “They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” So what Trump said is that SOME Mexicans are rapists. Your version removes the qualifier “some.” It leaves you complaining about an accurate statement of Trump’s: some Mexican immigrants are rapists. [Cite.](http://www.recordonline.com/article/20150507/NEWS/150509477) I’m not seeing the qualifier “some” in trump’s quote in relation to rapists. The only use I see of the word “some”, is when he assumes that there may be some good people mixed in with the drugs, crime, and rapists. You have ADDED the qualifier “some” to his statement, and then chided a poster for removing it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743/120 "2017-08-17T15:05:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Have we considered that Trump may have used the wrong “they’re” in the quote? It was a spoken phrase, maybe he meant \*their rapists. Maybe he actually meant “therapists”, if you are stretching that much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-are-the-same-is-a-dogmatic-position-immune-from-facts/793743.md?page=7)