# Both sides: Trump and Harris are \*Both\* Anti-trade according to US Chamber of Commerce
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Tags:** trump
**Created:** [October 10, 2024, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640 "2024-10-10T21:28:42Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2024, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/1 "2024-10-10T21:28:42Z")
From the annals of both-sidesism, the Chamber of Commerce says, “We have two presidential candidates who are anti-trade.” Not quite and not really. Bloomberg:
[https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/investing/2024/10/10/trump-harris-are-both-anti-trade-business-lobby-chief-says/](https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/investing/2024/10/10/trump-harris-are-both-anti-trade-business-lobby-chief-says/)
Let’s see. Trump wants a 60% duty on Chinese products as well as [an across the board 10% tariff on goods from any country](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-tariffs-proposal-10-percent-1700-cost-per-us-household/). Harris doesn’t propose new tariffs, but she doesn’t plan on pursuing new free trade deals on the top of the ones we already have.
Um, those aren’t equivalent. Trump’s plan is highly inflationary (in addition to giving the middle class a substantial tax hike). Harris’ plan amounts to no change in policy.
[Wiki notes that](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Chamber_of_Commerce), “The U.S. Chamber of Commerce claims to represent three million businesses, but this claim is often contested. It is funded primarily by multinational corporations.” Many local Chambers have absolutely nothing to do with this front for big business.
So is the Fortune 500 broadly supportive of free trade? LOL, not anymore at least. If you can’t call out 10% across the board tariffs, you aren’t a free trader. Then there’s that January 6th thing.
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### Author:  [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2024, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/2 "2024-10-10T21:32:29Z")
Sorry, I missed your non sequitur.
The Fortune 500 backed January 6th? Or the U.S. Chamber of Commerce?
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### Author:  [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2024, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/3 "2024-10-10T21:37:47Z")
The US Chamber of Commerce is supported by big business, so broadly speaking it represents the general interests of the Fortune 500 (though not all Fortune 500 companies are members). (Ties to local Chambers of Commerce are mostly superficial exercises in public relations.)
Democracy is very good for capitalism. Self interest beyond the next quarterly earnings report _should_ compel our business leaders to openly defy Trump. No such luck. Export oriented companies should oppose these tariffs, because taxes on imports amount to taxes on exports, via enhanced import prices, most notably labor. No such luck. Fortune 500 companies don’t represent their shareholders particularly well, never mind the general public.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2024, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/4 "2024-10-10T21:41:21Z")
Cite: [https://thehill.com/lobbying/3973039-us-chamber-mostly-funded-by-small-pool-of-big-donors-study/](https://thehill.com/lobbying/3973039-us-chamber-mostly-funded-by-small-pool-of-big-donors-study/)
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2024, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/5 "2024-10-10T21:46:31Z")
If Bob shoots any Djiboutian person that he sees, while Amy merely builds a wall that keeps Djiboutian persons from being able to enter the country, then both Bob and Amy are anti-Djibouti.
One is worse, yes, but that doesn’t mean that either of them is pro-Djibouti.
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2024, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/6 "2024-10-10T21:52:17Z")
I was interested to see that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce has faced some internal dissension [over recent endorsements of some Democratic candidates](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/27/chamber-of-commerce-turmoil-402837); it just endorsed an incumbent Democrat in California’s 50th Congressional District.
It has also endorsed Ted Cruz over Colin Allred, so there’s that.
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### Author:  [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2024, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/7 "2024-10-10T21:53:52Z")
If Bob shoots any Djiboutian person that he sees, while Amy ~~merely builds a wall that keeps Djiboutian persons from being able to enter the country~~ goes about her business but does not donate to pro-Djiboutian causes, then Bob is anti-Djibouti. Those who say they are both anti-Djibouti are not pro-Djibouti.
One is worse, yes, but that doesn’t mean that either of them is pro-Djibouti. Except insofar as Amy has always… ah forget it. The US has long-standing policies that have been _mostly_ free trade, with occasional reversals (reference George Bush’s steel tariffs). Free trade deals won’t currently pass Congress. In this political environment supporting the status quo amounts to significant pressure for free trade. Sometimes treading water is the best you can do.
Not that free trade is necessarily ideal! It’s just better than poorly designed and inflationary blanket tariffs.
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### Author:  [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/8 "2024-10-10T22:11:36Z")
This reminds me of the both-siderism that we are getting form the Pro-Palestinian lobby. Yes, Biden and probably Harris aren’t pushing back on Israel the way that these people would like, but they are a hell of a lot better for them than Trump would be.
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### Author:  [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2024, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/9 "2024-10-10T23:09:28Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#):
>
> The US has long-standing policies that have been _mostly_ free trade, with occasional reversals
Sure, if you only consider the inbound component and even then through “Uncle Sam” tinted glasses.
Let’s not forget the US Farm Bill and the consequent mechanism to export/dispose the surplus created. The free trade [Cairns Group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairns_Group) was formed as a counter to the spiralling trade subsidies of the European Union’s Common Agricultural Policy and the United States’ Export Enhancement Program.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2024, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/10 "2024-10-10T23:23:14Z")
That Commie rag _The Economist_ has just published an issue whose cover story is labeled
> The Trumpification of American policy
> No matter who wins in November, Donald Trump has redefined both parties’ agendas.
They go on to argue at length that on nearly every area of policy, trump / MAGA / Freedumb Caucus / Heritage Foundation has set the terms of debate and positioned the USA where the left-leaning choice is right and the right-leaning choice is Reactionary Wacko or nihilist.
To be clear they are not now, and never have been, fans of trump _et al_. But they are perceptive enough to see what’s happening and report accurately on it.
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2024, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/11 "2024-10-11T01:13:12Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> To be clear they are not now, and never have been, fans of trump _et al_. But they are perceptive enough to see what’s happening and report accurately on it.
No, instead they are **rabidly** centrist, and I would not call their reporting generally “accurate”.
It’s a sort of sophisticated wacko paper, but one that’s difficult to label. I don’t usually pay it any mind.
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### Author:  [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2024, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/12 "2024-10-11T02:06:44Z")
The Economist is a superior source of news, though they watered down their American content as their US readership increased.
Superior is a relative word. Here it’s relative to the NYT, WSJ, WAPO, CNN, anything on TV. Less bothsidism than the NYT, though it’s still there. In Europe it is considered a conservative newspaper (also a liberal one, no conflict there according to European definitions). I’m often dubious about their POV, but their articles generally are informative enough so that reasonable me can disagree with the reasonable reporter’s perspective.
Substack can be better, but substack doesn’t do comprehensive reporting. Heck, is there any organ that reports on a wider range of countries? Maybe [Foreign Policy](https://foreignpolicy.com/).
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### Author:  [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2024, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/13 "2024-10-11T05:26:34Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#):
>
> Heck, is there any organ that reports on a wider range of countries?
Well…
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### Author:  [@FluffyBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FluffyBob)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2024, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/14 "2024-10-11T11:50:30Z")
What???
This seems way off the rails to me? If you could indicate a more ‘accurate’ news source than the Economist I would appreciate it.
There is a lot of opinion and editorial analysis, but I find that very distinct from their reporting.
And their reporting is in depth and of breadth of scope that is global.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2024, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/15 "2024-10-11T12:25:33Z")
My opinion of _The Economist_ is much more @Measure_for_Measure’s than @Atamasama’s.
I see them as capital-C Conservative and capital-L Liberal in the European sense; they’re capitalist but anti-crime and anti-cronyist. I like to call myself a “Progressive Thinking Capitalist” where it takes all three of those poles to hold up my stool. IMO _The Economist_ plays nicely into that worldview.
IMO both _Foreign Policy_ and _Foreign Affairs_ address the worldwide situation, but both are stronger on intergovernmental policy and academic / think tank analysis than on current events as news.
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/16 "2024-10-11T13:02:33Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#):
>
> This reminds me of the both-siderism that we are getting form the Pro-Palestinian lobby.
100% this.
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2024, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/17 "2024-10-11T13:06:09Z")
> [@Atamasama](#):
>
> > [@LSLGuy](#):
> >
> > To be clear they are not now, and never have been, fans of trump _et al_. But they are perceptive enough to see what’s happening and report accurately on it.
>
> No, instead they are **rabidly** centrist
I prefer the label “extreme centrist”. 😀
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### Author:  [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2024, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/18 "2024-10-11T16:21:43Z")
The Conference Board are straight shooters on Trump / Biden trade policy. Their September 20, 2024 report has these bullet points:
> - Former President Trump has proposed “universal” tariffs of 10-20 percent and tariffs on Chinese goods of 60 percent or more. The plan as described has no exceptions, but it would clearly contravene current US free trade agreements, and some exceptions would likely be made in practice.
> - The President’s powers on imposing tariffs without Congressional approval are broad, giving credence to the view that he would try to impose some form of universal tariff, which could be highly inflationary and impact US supply chains.
> - Vice President Harris would broadly continue the Administration’s trade policies, including its current tariffs on certain Chinese goods. There is a possibility she might be more open to discussions on market access, particularly on clean energy goods, depending on the results of the Congressional election.
> - Whichever candidate wins, renegotiation of the US-Mexico-Canada (USMCA) trade agreement in 2026 will be a major issue for the next Administration.
They also have a 4 page report on the subject. I trust the Chamber is a subscriber. This is moral failure by the US Chamber of Commerce; I presume it is not an intellectual failure.
Conference Board on International Trade
> **[Policy Backgrounders](https://www.conference-board.org/research/ced-policy-backgrounders/us-presidential-candidates-positions-on-trade)**
>
> International trade has been an important issue in the US Presidential election.
As far as I can tell though, the Conference Board has not been critical in the past 3 months of Trump’s rejection of the democratic experiment. They do have a webpage on misinformation and the like, so the topic is part of their wheelhouse.
[https://www.conference-board.org/us/committee-economic-development/sustaining-democratic-institutions](https://www.conference-board.org/us/committee-economic-development/sustaining-democratic-institutions)
The failure of the Conference Board to address what could be loosely characterized as a fascist threat (a platform that combines rejection of electoral politics and mass deportation is properly identified as such - think Mussolini, not Hitler) best reflects corporate America’s positioning. Our business leaders by and large have shown little intelligence or political courage in sustaining the environment of law that they rely on. They don’t care. Remember that.
[TPM comments on the moment:](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/morning-memo/what-it-looks-like-when-one-side-rejects-democracy)
> things have settled into a odd limbo, like we’re all waiting out the clock until Election Day, resigned that a sufficient number of our fellow citizens may in fact decide to ditch the American experiment as we know it, imperfect though it’s been, in favor of some kind of gaudy neofascist kleptocracy.
From _When Democracy Itself Is On the Ballot, We’ve Already Lost_
TPM has an interesting journalistic framework. They are up front about their POV, but they strive for honestly and fairness. Part of honesty involves stating where they haven’t quite figured things out. I’m happy to support conservative or liberal rags provided they have the requisite levels of honesty and opposition to dictatorship. It’s easier to find that on the center left than on the right of center.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2024, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/19 "2024-10-11T17:48:49Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#):
>
> Our business leaders by and large have shown little intelligence or political courage in sustaining the environment of law that they rely on. They don’t care. Remember that.
At best they fall into the same trap as the regular low-info voter, of assuming that such “environment of law” or at least the parts that protect _them,_ is some sort of natural default base state severable from the parts of the law that _limit_ them or that protect _others._
At worst it’s a repeat of how the original rise of fascism in the 1920s and 30s was heavily abetted by capitalists and land oligarchs in the respective countries, as long as they got someone to keep “the Bolsheviks” away.
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### Author:  [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)
#### Post date: [October 14, 2024, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/both-sides-trump-and-harris-are-both-anti-trade-according-to-us-chamber-of-commerce/1008640/20 "2024-10-14T11:43:32Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#):
>
> Self interest beyond the next quarterly earnings report _should_ compel our business leaders to openly defy Trump.
I see no evidence that once a company reaches a certain size (Fortune 500 certainly qualifies, I’m open to “listed on a stock exchange”) that it cares about anything beyond the next quarterly report.
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