# Botulism from garlic **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 20, 2017, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062 "2017-05-20T05:58:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/1 "2017-05-20T05:58:45Z")
Saturday morning I will make kimchi using [this recipe](https://www.chowhound.com/recipes/basic-napa-cabbage-kimchi-kimchee-29505). (The cabbage has been soaking since about 9:30 this morning.) I’ve heard that fresh garlic can result in botulism unless cooked. I’ve also heard that fermenting produces beneficial bacteria, and an environment that is hostile to botulism; so the garlic should be OK. And of course, people have been fermenting cabbage with fresh garlic in it for centuries. I just want to be sure: Is fresh garlic safe in this recipe? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/2 "2017-05-20T14:19:24Z")
If you’re worried about the garlic, I’d be worried about the cabbage as well. All those things can carry botulism. [For example](http://articles.extension.org/pages/13215/clostridium-botulinum): “Outbreaks stemming from the growth of botulinum toxin from unrefrigerated cabbage have been documented.” I don’t have a GQ answer, but I’ve made kimchi and other fermented foods many times before without any issue. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/3 "2017-05-20T16:00:16Z")
My understanding is that the brine soak does a good job of killing the bacteria you don’t want. Don’t skimp on the salt or the time. There is a flaw in the recipe you linked: wear kitchen gloves unless you want spicy fingernails. It’s very hard to get the smell off. And God have mercy on you if you touch your eye. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/4 "2017-05-20T17:34:35Z")
I don’t how well the issue is yet understood. Trace amounts of botulism can be found in a lot of vegetables. The botulism grows in anaerobic environments. The studies I saw go back many years now but it was unclear if garlic kept in acids, oil, or brine were anymore likely to result in botulism infections. These days I avoid raw garlic for other reasons except to season a salad bowl. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/5 "2017-05-20T17:39:46Z")
Well, everything is in the jar. If I die, I’ll let you know. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/6 "2017-05-20T19:00:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t how well the issue is yet understood. Trace amounts of botulism can be found in a lot of vegetables. The botulism grows in anaerobic environments. The studies I saw go back many years now but it was unclear if garlic kept in acids, oil, or brine were anymore likely to result in botulism infections. These days I avoid raw garlic for other reasons except to season a salad bowl. The one I’ve heard is garlic in oil, because it’s an anaerobic and low-acid environment, both of which botulism apparently is fond of. Also, botulism doesn’t grow in an under 4.6ph environment, [according to this USDA fact sheet](https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/a70a5447-9490-4855-af0d-e617ea6b5e46/Clostridium_botulinum.pdf?MOD=AJPERES). Apparently, the optimum pH level of kimchi is 4.2, so the target is below that. Of course, it takes a bit of time to get to that pH. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/7 "2017-05-20T19:21:10Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > The one I’ve heard is garlic in oil… Now that you mention it, this is where I heard the botulism thing. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/8 "2017-05-20T19:34:00Z")
Ditto. Although I never understood why a pre-bottling of garlic oil is worth doing anyway since there is no difference in “aged” garlic oil than a 30-sec boil-up on some. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/9 "2017-05-20T19:47:32Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I’ve heard that fresh garlic can result in botulism unless cooked. _Really ???_ What of the millions who eat a clove every day, and the millions more who used to ? And of excellent King Henri IV, who was baptised in the good old Béarnese fashion with garlic rubbed on the mouth and wine drank ? Something continued in the legitimate ( non-Orleans ) line of kingly babies. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/10 "2017-05-20T19:52:27Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > _Really ???_ Sorry I wasn’t clear. I meant preserving garlic, as in kimchi. But it seems I was remembering the garlic-infused oil. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/11 "2017-05-20T21:25:13Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > […And of excellent King Henri IV, who was baptised in the good old Béarnese fashion with garlic rubbed on the mouth and wine drank ? > > Something continued in the legitimate ( non-Orleans ) line of kingly babies. Cite? /not snark interested about present day ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/12 "2017-05-21T00:19:36Z")
Been eating uncooked garlic for years without issue. Most adult human stomachs have the ability to destroy the spores, honey has a risk of botulism too and this is why it is not recommended to give it to children under 1 year of age, they lack the ability for their stomach to destroy botulism. Sure its still a risk, but shouldn’t be that big. and for getting the smell off of your finger nails, rub toothpaste under them, wait a couple minutes then wash with a fragrant soap, gets rid of most of the smell, if not all of it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/13 "2017-05-21T00:22:15Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > Been eating uncooked garlic for years without issue. Again: I meant preserved garlic, as in kimchi. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/14 "2017-05-21T00:24:55Z")
Same rule should apply, If there is garlic, I have been eating it throughout the years, love the stuff. The risk shouldn’t be any more than fermenting or preserving anything else, canned or pickles etc. If in doubt, soak first, then add vinegar to acidify and lessen the chance. Sorry all I have for you is anecdotal but I seriously wouldn’t worry about that. I have been preserving stuff for a while, I learned when I was a kid and even my creations then didn’t kill me. It will be perfectly fine. Theres always risks with everything (learned that from SDMB) but that is definitely not one I personally would worry about. Happy fermenting! ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/15 "2017-05-21T00:46:22Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Cite? /not snark interested about present day \*In addition, when Princess Caroline of Naples and Sicily (a descendant of his) gave birth to a male heir to the throne of France seven months after the assassination \* of her husband Charles Ferdinand, Duke of Berry, by a Republican fanatic, the boy was conspicuously named Henri in reference to his forefather Henry IV. The boy also was baptised in the traditional way of Béarn/Navarre, with a spoon of Jurançon wine \*\* and some garlic, imitating the manner in which Henry IV had been baptised in Pau. \* Wiki — **[Henri IV](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_France)** That child was **[Chambord](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri,_Count_of_Chambord)**. His present legitimate successor, but not descendant since he had no children, is **[Louis XX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Alphonse,_Duke_of_Anjou)**. Aged 43, I do not know if his parents continued the custom; but since he was born the other side of the Pyrenees, maybe not. - 1. \*\* **[Jurançon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juran%C3%A7on_AOC)** is apparently a white sweet wine. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/botulism-from-garlic/787062/16 "2017-05-21T14:29:31Z")
Botulism is not caused by the spores so much as the toxin the bacterium generates if left undisturbed in an air-free environment. [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism#Cause): Toxin that is produced by the bacterium within containers of food that have been improperly preserved is the most common cause of food-borne botulism. Fish that has been pickled without the salinity or acidity of brine that contains acetic acid and high sodium levels, as well as smoked fish stored at too high a temperature, presents a risk, as does improperly canned food. Food borne botulism results from contaminated food in which C. botulinum spores have been allowed to germinate in low-oxygen conditions. This typically occurs in home-canned food substances and fermented uncooked dishes. Given that multiple people often consume food from the same source, it is common for more than a single person to be affected simultaneously. Symptoms usually appear 12–36 hours after eating, but can also appear within 2 hours to 10 days. In the gut colonization section, it says it is very rare except for infants who ingested some spores, and that spores in honey is a factor in a fifth of all such cases. In the [prevention](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism#Prevention) section (picking out mentions of garlic): Other, but much rarer sources of infection (about every decade in the US) include garlic or herbs stored covered in oil without acidification . . . Oils infused with fresh garlic or herbs should be acidified and refrigerated.