# Boundaries around Musical Genres **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955 "2007-03-07T15:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955/21 "2007-03-08T13:52:26Z")
[QUOTE=WordMan] I am not a Dave Matthews Band fan - “he’s a lot better than he sounds!” - but deeply respect the musicianship of the players in the band. [/QUOTE] This reminds me of a story. Me, my brother, and his friend were in Athens, GA in the early 90s, before DMB became popular. In fact, I didn’t even know who they were. So we went to a place that was supposed to have several acts play that night, but only one band actually showed up. (Gypsy Train, IIRC. Southern rock with country influences.) They played their first set. It wasn’t the best opening act ever. Okay, it was probably the worst. But it was tolerable knowing better acts were to follow. The next band didn’t show up, so the band played the _exact same set - again!_. Still no other bands. So the band started to play their exact same stuff - again. Only this time a fiddler was up on stage improvving with them. He has more musical talent than all of Gypsy Train put together, and later we found out he of course was in DMB. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955/22 "2007-03-08T14:04:44Z")
Speaking of fiddlers, as **Ludovic** just did, reminds me of another artist (the term really applies here) in the same basic bag as Bela Fleck, Dave Grisman, and even Yo-Yo Ma: [Mark O’Connor](http://www.markoconnor.com/). He is almost impossible to categorize as he is as competent a violinist as he is a fiddler, and is just as comfortable and adept in Bluegrass as he is in Jazz and as he is in Country, Classical, Cajun, Celtic, you pick a genre where the 4-string do-lolly you play with a bow and stick under your chin is a prominent instrument. If there’s a bin where his CD’s are located _not_ labeled Mark O’Connor, then it’s mislabled! ---
**Author:** ![Paintcharge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paintcharge/32/7946_2.png) [@Paintcharge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paintcharge)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955/23 "2007-03-08T14:09:29Z")
Was there a time that R&B shifted from groups such as the **Stones** and **10 Years After** to the R&B of today? **Beyonce** was nominated for an R&B Grammy this year. When did this change happen, and what caused it. Should there be a new classification and R&B essentially “closed?” Or do we retroactively start calling the older, harder R&B something new? ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955/24 "2007-03-08T14:24:48Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] But examining [this list of genres](http://web.archive.org/web/20031206022357/http://www.bobsmusicindex.com/MasterGenreList.html) which **lexi** was kind enough to provide in my [Master List of Music Genres – got one handy?](http://208.100.26.199/sdmb/showthread.php?t=409717) thread last month, it’s utterly staggering how many pigeonholes exist in Music today. Do we really need that much precision? [/QUOTE] hehe. I couldn’t find **cowpunk** listed. Bands like **Long Black Sedan** , **4-Barrel Ghost** and Pittsburgh’s own **Legendary Hucklebucks** might be squeezed into Rockabilly, however they yell more and use the F word throughout their laments about their sweethearts running off with someone from the trailer park. 😕 Thanks for the cool link, BTW! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955/25 "2007-03-08T14:34:20Z")
Y’all might want another thread for this side issue, but which artist do you know of who spans most genres? Another way to phrase it would be, “If the record shop were diligent enough in their genre labeling and storing of individual records, which artist (or group) would be in the most different genre bins?” This could get really messy if the same CD had multiple genres equally well represented! ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955/26 "2007-03-10T06:25:25Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] As to the Grisman and Fleck area, I liked Grisman’s “Dawg Grass” name for the portion of his work that’s obviously jazz flavored. Fleck can play by god anything! Can’t really comment on the others you mention although I have heard MMW on the radio a few times. As a blanket statement, new acts (those less than 20 years in the spotlight) that play in the “straight ahead” or “mainstream” bags are usually okay with me. Bottom line: I agree with the sentiment you expressed from Dave Matthews, and I believe I first heard that attributed to Duke Ellington. It’s the real test. I’ve been tempted to start a new thread, and if you think it’s a good idea maybe somebody else will: Which Musical Artists Did You Used To Hate But Now At Least Appreciate? Under that heading I would try to include the “Good Musicians” who play in genres I generally dislike as a group. [/QUOTE] MMW is mostly avant garde Jazz, sort of, I think, I haven’t heard enough of their studio work to decide what they want themselves to be thought of as. I guess I mentioned them because they have an album or two that is much more Electronica/Jazz and striking in composition to the others (_End of the World Party_ comes to mind). Re: Bela Fleck – He’d be my vote for artist classified under the most genres, especially if you consider the guest work he’s done. BF&FT are usually Jazz; Bela Fleck is somewhere in the Acoustic, Bluegrass, Folk, or Country bin; Bela’s also written classical concertos; and he’s guested on Pish and DMB albums that I can think of. Since making my previous post I’d considered starting a similar thread as you suggested. Especially reflecting on how everyone was getting near orgasmic over Prince’s SuperBowl performance while I thought he’s a really good musician, he just doesn’t wow me. ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955/27 "2007-03-10T08:11:57Z")
[QUOTE=WordMan] :smack: see what happens when you type too fast? I have only myself to blame and thank you for correcting that! [/QUOTE] Hey, Bill Monroe is my homeboy. Someone’s got to stick up for him and his bluegrass boys. 'Specially since they’re all dead. [QUOTE=WordMan] I certainly don’t see any of these genres as hard and fast - what’s the line “a tool is only useful until it isn’t” and having a handful of genre descriptions reflects that. The joy of truly good music is often its ability to confound conventional wisdom of the day. [/Quote] Neither do I (. . . see these genres as hard and fast. . . ). Since then, I’ve spent the past few days at work wondering if it’s purposefull to think about the bands that defie genres when trying to mark the boudaries that define any one particular genre. Afterall, as you said, the joy of good music is it’s ability to defie genres. [QUOTE=WordMan] I am not a Dave Matthews Band fan - “he’s a lot better than he sounds!” - but deeply respect the musicianship of the players in the band. [/Quote] I didn’t want to give the impression that I am still a huge DMB fan, though my location may say otherwise. I feel the need to defend myself though. DMB is the music of my youth: ages 12-18. It’s the music I grew up listening to. I will relate to a song like “Pay For What You Get” like none other. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955/28 "2007-03-10T15:17:22Z")
Classical: Obviously, this is the broadest category, both in variety and longevity. And in spite of what others have posted, the majority of “classical” music is not orchestral. And I can’t find anything intrinsic to classical music that distinguishes it from other genres. That being said, 1. The melody and harmony take precedence over the rhythm (though there are exceptions). 2. The music is not performed with amplification (though there are exceptions). 3. The audience sits quietly during performances (though there are exceptions). 4. We know it when we hear it (though there are exceptions). ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2007, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955/29 "2007-03-11T12:36:02Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] Another way to phrase it would be, “If the record shop were diligent enough in their genre labeling and storing of individual records, which artist (or group) would be in the most different genre bins?”! [/QUOTE] I nominate Willie Nelson: country, pop, jazz, and reggae at least. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2007, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955/30 "2007-03-12T04:32:24Z")
Here’s my try at at a few of those differences **Pop vs Rock** :Pop music is strictly a verse/chorus structure, with the distinction between the two very clear. Melodies and rhythms are simple and catchy. Instrumental breaks are short and stick to the melody/rhythm. Every song sounds like it was intended for radio play, with songs no longer than five minutes. The sound of the song would not be significantly altered if no guitars were used. Rock can deviate from these rules. **Jazz vs Pop** :Jazz is primarily instrumental. If vocal, the backing musicians must sound like they would with no vocalist. The song is heavily improvised on all instruments so that song structure is very loose. Rock is mostly vocal, with little improvisation (especially regarding rhythms). Obviously many artists straddle these barriers. The main question is whether they would have to greatly alter their sound to meet the classifications. I consider Paul McCartney a rock artist even though he meets a lot of pop parameters, he could record a song like “A Day In The Life” without sounding like he totally deviated from the rest of his work. Frank Sinatra or Louis Armstrong were pop when they recorded with strings, but jazz if they recorded with somebody like Count Basie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundaries-around-musical-genres/394955.md?page=1)