# Boundary between conspiracy theories and paranoid schizophrenia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2023, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952 "2023-11-10T17:38:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/1 "2023-11-10T17:38:16Z")
The occasion of this question is this news article > **[Lawyer for Alleged Pelosi Attacker: 'The Why Matters'](https://www.newser.com/story/342510/lawyer-for-alleged-pelosi-attacker-the-why-matters.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=synacor&utm_campaign=rss_crime_syn)** > > She says David DePape believed conspiracy theories 'with every ounce of his being' The public defender for the man charged with attacking Nancy Pelosi’s husband is claiming that the defendant’s sincere beliefs have to be taken into account when judging his conduct. While I very much doubt that any jury would find his actions in any way justifiable, I was thinking that maybe the defender is trying (probably behind her client’s back) for an insanity defense. So at what point does “crackpot” cross the line into “unable to understand that what they did was wrong”? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/2 "2023-11-10T17:43:02Z")
I am no psychologist, but my understanding is that schizophrenic people actually _hear or see things that aren’t there._ Whereas a conspiracy theorist isn’t hallucinating. He smells, sees, tastes and hears the exact same things we do. He may have a different _interpretation_ - just like a sports fan sees the same calls by the ref and thinks, “That ref is BIASED against my team!” - but the sports fan isn’t actually hallucinating and thinking that the ref just pulled out a revolver and shot one of the players on the field. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/3 "2023-11-10T17:55:23Z")
Okay, some research shows that I’m behind the times; modern diagnoses don’t consider it “schizophrenia”. I believe it’s now classified as [Persecutory delusion - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutory_delusion) although there is some overlap in that schizophrenics can, due to disordered thought processes, include paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/4 "2023-11-10T21:37:04Z")
“It’s not a lie if you believe it”. While it is his attorney’s job to provide a spirited defense, if the guy is coo-coo for cocoa puffs he should have never been walking around in public. That’s the real tragedy here. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/5 "2023-11-10T21:52:14Z")
IANAL, but I don’t think that theory holds water. Even if DePape truly believed all that stuff about Pelosi, was he still sane enough to realize that it was _illegal_ for him to break into her home and assault her husband? It doesn’t even matter if he thought it was “right” or “moral”……”he needed killing” is not a defense for murder even when it’s true, and for good reason. That’s the real legal question, I think. It wouldn’t have been legal for me to break into Jeffrey Epstein’s house and kneecap him, even though he was guilty of horrible things. And if I had suspected that architect of being the Long Island serial killer, that still wouldn’t have make it legal for me to kill him - even if my suspicions were right. That said, I’m extremely glad this case is going to trial, the right wing bullshit was particularly foul on this one and I think a highly visible public trial would go a long way towards countering those allegations. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/6 "2023-11-10T21:56:06Z")
IANAL but **Ann\_Hedonia** is right. Legal insanity is the state of not knowing right from wrong. That’s it. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/7 "2023-11-10T22:09:19Z")
Conspiracy theorists seem to be in a class of their own. Any narrative that doesn’t fit is part of a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/8 "2023-11-10T22:11:32Z")
It’s kinda like they live in a comic book universe. There’s True Goodness and Unspeakable Evil. And lots of vigilantism. You can see how that’s more fun than working as a clerk at Walgreens and splurging on McDonalds once a week after you get paid. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/9 "2023-11-10T22:53:41Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > “unable to understand that what they did was wrong”? So IANAL but I think this is a common misconception about what is required to find someone not guilty my reason of insanity. This oft quoted guide comes from [1800s Britain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%27Naghten_rules) and has long since been replaced by standards that put a much heavier burden of proof on the defense. In fact in some US jurisdictions it is not possible to claim an insanity defense no matter how much evidence is the accused was acting because of mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/10 "2023-11-10T23:59:23Z")
[The Conspiracy Chart — 2021](https://www.abbiesr.com/) was a popular web graphic. It’s one person’s ranking of leading conspiracy theories, dividing them into categories such as We Have Questions, Unequivocally Wrong But Mostly Harmless, Dangerous to Yourself And Others. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/11 "2023-11-11T00:01:03Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > So at what point does “crackpot” cross the line into “unable to understand that what they did was wrong”? That’s not what his public defender is arguing. It is not an insanity defense behind his back, nor is it claiming his sincere beliefs in some way justifies or mitigates his conduct. They are making a very specific motion (which I doubt will succeed) that he is being improperly charged in the wrong venue because (the motion claims) his attack on Paul Pelosi was not related to Nancy Pelosi’s official duties. From the article: > Federal public defender Jodi Linker, however, argued that the attack was “wholly unrelated” to then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s official duties, meaning the federal charges should not have been filed, [CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/09/politics/paul-pelosi-david-depape-attack-federal-trial/index.html) reports. “This is not a ‘whodunit.’ But what the government fails to acknowledge is the ‘whydunit,’ and the why matters in this case,” she said. Even if her motion were to succeed and the federal charges be thrown out, that would have no effect on the state charges of attempted murder, only the > federal charges including assault on the immediate family member of a federal official and the attempted kidnapping of a federal official. The motion will most likely be dismissed and the federal charges will stand, but the public defender has got to do something to earn her pay, and she has a completely hopeless case. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/12 "2023-11-11T03:20:08Z")
Devout conspiracy theorists i.e. those following the usual pattern of believing in multiple conspiracies are already deep into paranoia, but that doesn’t make them paranoid schizophrenics. Apparently most of these people function on a daily basis without serious consequences of their fetishes, other than provoking eye-rolling on the part of their acquaintances and driving loved ones to distraction. When the fuzzy line between paranoia and obsession gets crossed, innocent people get hurt. But [escape is possible](https://apnews.com/article/qanon-conspiracy-theory-recovery-4ea47c2966a41b30ae678e5f471f6070). ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/13 "2023-11-11T14:52:42Z")
“ … Sledgehammer, zip ties, gloves, duct tape, cash, a Canadian passport, a Canadian birth certificate, men’s clothes, a video game console, and two (2) inflatable, multicolor unicorn costumes” Shoot, a feller could have a pretty good time in Vegas with all that stuff! ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/14 "2023-11-13T18:49:25Z")
If I tell you the man across the street stole my wallet and put it in his back pocket, and you went and ‘retrieved’ it for me is my telling you that a valid defense? If I was a juror, I would expect proof he did due diligence research to the contrary. At some point being stupid should not be a defense. Maybe, all of the time. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/15 "2023-11-13T20:39:35Z")
I had a schizophrenic SIL (she died about 20 yrs ago) and her disease caused conspiracy theory-like thinking and statements as a by-product. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/16 "2023-11-14T17:36:54Z")
From what I see in SovCit and Flearth videos, there is a distinction to be made between an honest belief and a chosen belief _that dismisses any and all evidence to the contrary_. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2023, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/17 "2023-11-14T22:49:24Z")
No, the classic has to be the Apollo moon landing deniers. They literally will not accept proof insofar is available to anyone. I had mistakenly assumed Lunar Reconnaissance satellite photos of the landing sites taken from orbit would put the matter to rest. One would think. Right? One would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/18 "2023-11-15T15:46:05Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > [The Conspiracy Chart — 2021](https://www.abbiesr.com/) was a popular web graphic. I’d never heard of the Tartarian Empire before reading that. How have I missed such a _wonderful_ conspiracy theory! A race of (possibly) giants responsible for all our great architecture! They build the Great Wall in order to keep the Chinese _out!_ WWI and WWII were just cover stories for eliminating all traces of this race of benevolent superbeings! Oh my! ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/19 "2023-11-16T17:21:40Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Even if DePape truly believed all that stuff about Pelosi, was he still sane enough to realize that it was _illegal_ for him to break into her home and assault her husband? It doesn’t even matter if he thought it was “right” or “moral”……”he needed killing” is not a defense for murder even when it’s true, and for good reason. This is really the nut of the issue, IMHO. The disgraced former President “believed” he won the election, so he “thinks” he was justified in sending a mob to the Capitol to somehow halt the proceedings that ring-in his rival as President. It doesn’t matter what you believe, it only matters what you can prove in the court of law - ignorance does not make you innocent. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > From what I see in SovCit and Flearth videos, there is a distinction to be made between an honest belief and a chosen belief _that dismisses any and all evidence to the contrary_. One thing this place taught me a while ago is the difference between ignorance and stupidity: “Ignorance is okay. It just means you haven’t learned something yet, but you can learn by seeking more information. Stupidity is refusing to avail one’s self to information that could challenge your dearly held beliefs.” ---
**Author:** ![Digger11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Digger11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digger11)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2023, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-conspiracy-theories-and-paranoid-schizophrenia/992952/20 "2023-11-19T15:50:15Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The public defender for the man charged with attacking Nancy Pelosi’s husband is claiming that the defendant’s sincere beliefs have to be taken into account when judging his conduct. While I very much doubt that any jury would find his actions in any way justifiable, I was thinking that maybe the defender is trying (probably behind her client’s back) for an insanity defense. There are indeed laws that consider a person’s belief and intent. That’s the reason for the difference between first-degree murder and negligent homicide, for example. But it seems to me that this situation is not one of those times.