# Boundary between Northern and Southern California **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779 "2007-07-14T18:53:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/21 "2007-07-15T19:41:45Z")
One of the problems with dividing California is that it needs to be divided into more than two pieces. The Central Valley is neither north nor south, geographically or culturally. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/22 "2007-07-15T22:01:13Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] As my degree is in Littoral Ecology (Marine Biology), I can say there is an important cut-off at Pt Conception. [/QUOTE] Yep. Mirrored on the land side by the Tehachapi range, which marks the border for certain less vagile fauna. Hence the traditional Tehachapi split. Geographically it is the best candidate. Myself, I’ve always had a tendency to use a vague line starting at Big Sur to split the state. As **Giraffe** noted this mercifully confines Fresno to SoCal ;). ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/23 "2007-07-15T23:12:27Z")
[QUOTE=BluePitbull] Sorry for asking, I am a non American, Is there really a difference between Northern California and Southern California? [/QUOTE] California stretches 1,240 km north-to-south covering nearly ten degrees of latitude. [Here’s the state outline superimposed over France](http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/bedgyro/CALIFORNIAoverFRANCE.jpg), for comparison. The coast simply gets cooler going north. Southern CA is swathed with desert while Northern CA is forested, with the very fertile Central Valley sort of in between. The Sierra Nevada mountain range runs nearly the length of the California-Nevada border. It’s a very diverse state socially and ecologically. As long as we get Yosemite I’m good. I saw an Absolut ad on a San Francisco building (while going to the Dopefest there) that labeled the two regions “California” and “South California.” It was entitled “In an Absolut World.” ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/24 "2007-07-15T23:34:19Z")
The Grapevine. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2007, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/25 "2007-07-15T23:42:49Z")
[QUOTE=garygnu] California stretches 1,240 km north-to-south covering nearly ten degrees of latitude. [Here’s the state outline superimposed over France](http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/bedgyro/CALIFORNIAoverFRANCE.jpg), for comparison. [/QUOTE] Cool. I live in Provence. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/26 "2007-07-16T00:52:03Z")
Why wouldn’t the logical boundary be. . . somewhere in the middle? Like, how any one can say the Grapevine just baffles me. I would say (looking at a map) somewhere around Fresno (even a little north of it). ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/27 "2007-07-16T01:55:23Z")
Assuming that we’re just doing a “North / South” split, no “Central Coast” or “Central Valley”: [QUOTE=Tamerlane] Myself, I’ve always had a tendency to use a vague line starting at Big Sur to split the state. [/QUOTE] I, too, think of Big Sur as the furthest south point of “Northern California”; even the name (_sur_ = “south”) suggests that it’s part of en entity that stretches northward from it. One can also get down as far as [Big Sur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Sur) – but no further – from the SF Bay Area (and even from [Fort Bragg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bragg%2C_California) on the Mendocino Coast or [Nevada City](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_City) in the Sierra foothills) using only local public transportation. This, to me, means that the cutoff line between North and South **cannot** be further north than Big Sur. [In addition, I’ve only ever heard anyone around Big Sur refer to its main thoroughfare as “Highway One”, never “The One” as those SoCal people have a tendency to do…] [Here](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c5/California_counties_map.gif) is a map of the counties of California. Note that for the southernmost two-thirds or so, both the coast and the California / Nevada border run approximately Northwest - Southeast. If one wanted a simple “single-line” boundary, I’d propose running it perpendicular to the CA / NV border, bisecting [Mono Lake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_lake) (located near the “N” of MONO County on that map). Running approximately due southwest, such a “single-line” NorCal / SoCal border would reach the Pacific Coast just south of Big Sur. Alternatively, if one wishes to maintain existing county boundaries, I’d put Monterey, San Benito, Merced, Mariposa, and Mono counties in NorCal, with the counties to the southeast of them (San Luis Obispo, Kings, Fresno, Inyo, etc) in SoCal. I’m undecided on Madera County; it contains the [geographic center of California](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_centers_of_the_United_States), and my “single-line border” (in the preceding paragraph) nearly bisects it, so it could go either way. Perhaps the residents could vote on it, or one could take polls as to whether a plurality refers to the main road through [Madera](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madera%2C_California) as “Highway 99” (Norcalese) or “The 99” (SoCalese). _[Both of the above methods keep Yosemite in Norcal while banishing Fresno to SoCal, as nature intended. Sacramento and Stockton both need to be in NorCal too, despite what **Hometownboy** ’s friend thought.]_ [QUOTE=DiosaBellissima] We’re … three hours (that’s good time) from San Fran. We’re definitely Southern California. [/QUOTE] Hey, if you’re going to call it “San Fran”, it’s just as _well_ you’re not trying for inclusion in Northern California! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/28 "2007-07-16T04:35:57Z")
[QUOTE=Antonius Block] Alternatively, if one wishes to maintain existing county boundaries, I’d put Monterey, San Benito, Merced, Mariposa, and Mono counties in NorCal, with the counties to the southeast of them (San Luis Obispo, Kings, Fresno, Inyo, etc) inSoCal. [/QUOTE] San Luis Obispo is the problem child. It really has a Northern Cal ambience. It is also just barely North of Pt Conception, so biologically speaking, it should be in the North. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/29 "2007-07-16T08:28:49Z")
[QUOTE=BluePitbull] Sorry for asking, I am a non American, Is there really a difference between Northern California and Southern California? [/QUOTE] Both of my parents are originally from Southern California (dad’s from East LA, mom’s from Pasadena), but they moved to Northern California before I was born, and I grew up there. But most of my extended family still lives in Southern California (one of my aunts lived in Santa Monica for years, now her family is in S. Pasadena, most of the rest migrated south to Orange County). So I’ve spent plenty of time in both, and there is definitely a difference. Southern California is practically a desert (and to the east, it IS a desert), warmer, politically more conservative, more densely populated, and more Latino. The idea of a California of sun, sand, and surf, is almost entirely Southern California. Northern California is cooler, especially along the coasts where it rarely gets very warm at all, farther to the left politically, has redwood forests, and is less densely populated. This is where the idea of the “hippie” California comes from. Los Angeles, Orange County, San Diego, Hollywood and the film industry are all in Southern California. The Bay Area (including San Francisco, Oakland, and San Jose) Silicon Valley and the computer industry, and the Wine Country, are all in Northern California. I’d put the line just south of Monterey, personally. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/30 "2007-07-16T12:11:43Z")
Former SLO resident here. SLO is neither NorCal or SoCal, it’s the Central Coast. SLO residents hate being lumped in Southerners. SB is probably the boundary for SoCal. Gaviota and Lompoc up the 101 to Santa Maria, Pismo, SLO, Morro Bay, up to probably Atascadero and/or San Simeon is Central. North of there, that’s NorCal. No idea how to deal with the interior of the state, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/31 "2007-07-16T12:33:47Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] Can’t we just sell it to Nevada for more water rights? [/QUOTE] Nevada doesn’t have any water. Colorado has the water. And we don’t want Fresno, either. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/32 "2007-07-16T17:58:14Z")
[QUOTE=BluePitbull] Sorry for asking, I am a non American, Is there really a difference between Northern California and Southern California? [/QUOTE] Northern Californians are smart, earthy, generous, and hip. Southern Californians are dumber than rocks. Unfortunately, thanks to Hollywood, much of the world equates “U.S. Citizen” with “Southern Californian”. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/33 "2007-07-16T18:37:57Z")
Northern California has water. Southern California needs water. Southern California has more people and more legislative clout. Therefore there is a huge aqueduct bringing water from NoCal to LA. Another aqueduct supplies part of the Central Valley. If I were splitting California, I’d do it by rainfall. [Rainfall Map](http://www.ocs.orst.edu/pub/maps/Precipitation/Total/States/CA/ca.gif) [Geographic map](http://130.166.124.2/ca_panorama_atlas/index.html) - - to show the Valley and the mountains. My parents were born in SoCal, but by the time they retired, the area was so built up that they moved to NoCal for some elbow room. Fly over the LA area and the only green areas you’ll see are parks, golf courses, and cemetaries. I know that Greater LA isn’t all of SoCal, but it’s where most of the people are. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/34 "2007-07-16T19:34:47Z")
[QUOTE=JKellyMap] Northern Californians are smart, earthy, generous, and hip. Southern Californians are dumber than rocks. Unfortunately, thanks to Hollywood, much of the world equates “U.S. Citizen” with “Southern Californian”. [/QUOTE] An introduction to some Southern California rocks: > **[University of California San Diego](https://www.ucsd.edu/)** > > The University California San Diego is one of the world's leading public research universities, located in beautiful La Jolla, California [http://sio.ucsd.edu/](http://sio.ucsd.edu/) > **[Salk Institute – Where Cures Begin](https://www.salk.edu/)** > > THE POWER OF SCIENCE - We explore the very foundations of life for the benefit of all. > **[Home | San Diego State University](https://www.sdsu.edu/)** > > Since its founding in 1897, the university has grown to become a leading public research university, and a federally-designated Hispanic-serving Institution. Dr. Adela de la Torre is the current president of San Diego State University (SDSU). Thanks to posts like the above-quoted, much of the world equates “Southern California” with “Hollywood.” ---
**Author:** ![dwc1970](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@dwc1970](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dwc1970)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/35 "2007-07-16T21:03:58Z")
The same north/south dichotomy exists here in Idaho as well. Most Idahoans will concur that northern Idaho begins at the town of [Riggins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riggins%2C_Idaho). Northern Idahoans often feel alienated and neglected by us in the southern part of the state. The climate there is cooler and wetter than in southern Idaho with more forests and mountains. The logging and mining industries are more prominent there, too. We have plenty of forests and mountains in southern Idaho, too, but this end of the state is more known for its high desert climate and agriculture. Northern Idaho is also still reeling from its stigma in being associated with KKK/skinheads/Neo Nazi’s/Aryan Nations/White Supremacists or whatever they’re called, even though the David Butler compound there was torn down years ago and the group was bankrupted. The capital and most of the larger cities in Idaho are in the southern half of the state, so there’s more weight carried here, legislatively and politically speaking. Only one highway (U.S. 95) connects the two ends of the state. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/36 "2007-07-16T21:20:54Z")
[QUOTE=dwc1970] The same north/south dichotomy exists here in Idaho as well… [/QUOTE] In researching ideas for this thread I came across [The State of Lincoln](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Lincoln). ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/37 "2007-07-16T22:21:33Z")
[QUOTE=JKellyMap] Northern Californians are smart, earthy, generous, and hip. Southern Californians are dumber than rocks. Unfortunately, thanks to Hollywood, much of the world equates “U.S. Citizen” with “Southern Californian”. [/QUOTE] Northern California: redwood trees, wine country, pot-growers, spotted owls, Mt Shasta, Tahoe (barely), rock-covered beaches and cold ocean water, hippies, rainy winters, Berkeley. Southern California: movie & TV industry, deserts, dry winters, sandy beaches & warm water, The OC, Malibu, Nixon & Reagan, USC. Yeah, there’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/38 "2007-07-16T22:28:32Z")
[QUOTE=jsc1953] Northern California: redwood trees, wine country, pot-growers, spotted owls, Mt Shasta, Tahoe (barely), rock-covered beaches and cold ocean water, hippies, rainy winters, Berkeley. Southern California: movie & TV industry, deserts, dry winters, sandy beaches & warm water, The OC, Malibu, Nixon & Reagan, USC. Yeah, there’s a difference. [/QUOTE] Gah! Southern California does not equal L.A. (And if you think the water is warm, you are in for a surprise.) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/39 "2007-07-16T23:12:30Z")
[QUOTE=Zeldar] I’m an American and I will support this same question. Are there distinctly different geological differences, climate, vegetation, wildlife or other criteria of that type? . [/QUOTE] Culturally I think it’s mainly the rivalry between San Francisco and Los Angeles. I won’t go into it here; there must be a half dozen threads on that subject. Geographically, I think if you are north of L.A. county but still in commuting distance, you live in SoCal. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779/40 "2007-07-16T23:15:21Z")
[QUOTE=jsc1953] Northern California: redwood trees, wine country, pot-growers, spotted owls, Mt Shasta, Tahoe (barely), rock-covered beaches and cold ocean water, hippies, rainy winters, Berkeley. Southern California: movie & TV industry, deserts, dry winters, sandy beaches & warm water, The OC, Malibu, Nixon & Reagan, USC. Yeah, there’s a difference. [/QUOTE] Our ocean water is cold here too. You can’t go in without a wetsuit for a good part of the year. L.A. has been voting strongly Democratic in recent elections; the fact that Reagan and Nixon came from here really doesn’t inform local culture or politics, IMO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-northern-and-southern-california/411779.md?page=3)