# Boundary between seduction and rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728 "2010-10-01T15:20:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/1 "2010-10-01T15:20:23Z")
Inspired by, of all things, a web comic- (Warning! Utterly NSFW!) This page and the one that follows it: [noparse][Home Page - “Book For You”](http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3392%5B/noparse%5D) [noparse][Home Page - “Book For You”](http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3393%5B/noparse%5D) Now let me make myself clear: I believe the depicted scenerio is morally and pyschologically rape; but legally, can someone be charged with rape for basically being a manipulative bastard who takes advantage of someone’s fears and weaknesses? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/2 "2010-10-01T16:29:58Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Inspired by, of all things, a web comic- (Warning! Utterly NSFW!) > > This page and the one that follows it: > [noparse][http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3392[/noparse]](http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3392%5B/noparse%5D) > [noparse][http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3393[/noparse]](http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3393%5B/noparse%5D) > > Now let me make myself clear: I believe the depicted scenerio is morally and pyschologically rape; but legally, can someone be charged with rape for basically being a manipulative bastard who takes advantage of someone’s fears and weaknesses? Not as a general proposition, no. But there are plenty of specifics that could change that answer. I hate to say “It all depends,” but it really does all depend. Taking out special cases where the accused is in a position of authority over the victim, the general rule is that there must be force, threat of force, or intimidation. Intimidation, as used in this case, means putting a victim in fear of bodily harm, which must come from some conduct or statement of the accused. I don’t know what the backstory is on the comic linked to. But if this is someone whispering soothing words to a confused person, and relying on her confusion and need for some kind of help to allay any protests… it’s not rape. On the other hand, if she were, say, fleeing from an abusive spouse and she reasonably understood his conduct to be a threat that if she failed to acquiesce, he would return her to her abuser… it could be rape. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/3 "2010-10-01T16:30:16Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Inspired by, of all things, a web comic- (Warning! Utterly NSFW!) > > This page and the one that follows it: > [noparse][http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3392[/noparse]](http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3392%5B/noparse%5D) > [noparse][http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3393[/noparse]](http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3393%5B/noparse%5D) > > Now let me make myself clear: I believe the depicted scenerio is morally and pyschologically rape; but legally, can someone be charged with rape for basically being a manipulative bastard who takes advantage of someone’s fears and weaknesses? I’d call that rape by intimidation. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/4 "2010-10-01T16:42:20Z")
That’s creepy as hell! He’s a _bird_ and she’s some kinda deer-creature! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/5 "2010-10-01T16:49:43Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > Inspired by, of all things, a web comic- (Warning! Utterly NSFW!) > > > > This page and the one that follows it: > > [noparse][http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3392[/noparse]](http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3392%5B/noparse%5D) > > [noparse][http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3393[/noparse]](http://www.pholph.com/strip.php?id=5&sid=3393%5B/noparse%5D) > > > > Now let me make myself clear: I believe the depicted scenerio is morally and pyschologically rape; but legally, can someone be charged with rape for basically being a manipulative bastard who takes advantage of someone’s fears and weaknesses? > > I’d call that rape by intimidation. In what state? In Virginia: > [@](#): > > Intimidation differs from threat in that it occurs without an express threat by the accused to do bodily harm. (citation omitted) Intimidation requires “putting a victim **in fear of bodily harm** by exercising such domination and control of her as to overcome her mind and overbear her will. Intimidation may be caused by the imposition of psychological pressure on one who, under the circumstances, is vulnerable and susceptible to such pressure.” (citation omitted) This fear of bodily harm must derive from some conduct or statement of the accused. Quoting _Sabol v. Commonwealth_, 37 Va. App. 9 (2001). In Sabol, the accused was tried for rape. The following act was described: > [@](#): > > Appellant again told L.D. to “take care of him.” When she said she “didn’t want to,” he threatened to revoke her privilege to use the family car and to withhold money from her. She then “went back in the bedroom” because she “just felt like [she] had to.” She explained, “My whole life he has controlled me. I’ve never had to work. I never had to do anything. I didn’t have to care for myself. My parents took care of it for me.” > > When L.D. got back to the bedroom, she lay on the bed, and appellant “pulled down his pants and got on top of [her].” He then “stuck his penis in [her] vagina.” She “just laid there and pretended it wasn’t really happening” and “looked up at the ceiling.” When it “ended,” she “push[ed] him off” and went into the bathroom. As the court concluded: > [@](#): > > The victim never claims appellant, through words or deeds, put her in fear of bodily harm. Nothing in the record suggests she was ever in danger of bodily harm. L.D. never testified that she was actually in fear for her personal safety, only that she was afraid of losing the lifestyle to which she had become accustomed. . . . Here, the victim never testified she feared bodily harm if she refused appellant’s demands. While she did testify he was like a father to her, that relationship by itself does not support an inference of intimidation. What, in the comic, do you believe supports the inference that the victim feared bodily harm? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/6 "2010-10-01T16:50:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That’s creepy as hell! > > He’s a _bird_ and she’s some kinda deer-creature! So we can at least get him on miscegenation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/7 "2010-10-01T17:34:58Z")
Of interest: [Can I legally refuse to feed Rachel Leigh Cook unless she sleeps with me?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=184532), a 2003 thread that discusses the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/8 "2010-10-01T17:35:54Z")
Background of what’s happening: The woman Megan, and a young girl Susan are on the run from authorities, who believe Megan is a child abductor and/or murderer (actual situation involves the supernatural and I won’t go into it here). The two of them eluded the authorities who now think they’re dead, but Megan injured her legs and couldn’t walk. The guy Ordin found them and gave them a place to hide while Megan heals… at a price. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/9 "2010-10-01T17:43:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > I’d call that rape by intimidation. > > In what state? In the This-is-Why-the-Guy-Needs-to-have-his-jaw-broken state. Morally, in other words, rather than legally. I won’t address the rest of your post because I have confidence in your correctness on legal issues. I was not speaking in legal terms. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/10 "2010-10-01T17:50:32Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Background of what’s happening: > > The woman Megan, and a young girl Susan are on the run from authorities, who believe Megan is a child abductor and/or murderer (actual situation involves the supernatural and I won’t go into it here). The two of them eluded the authorities who now think they’re dead, but Megan injured her legs and couldn’t walk. The guy Ordin found them and gave them a place to hide while Megan heals… at a price. Hmmmm. I’d have to go with morally/ethically a scummy thing to do, but legally not rape in any jurisdiction I can think of. Even under suggested legal changes to criminalize this sort of behavior (sleep with me or I will flunk you out of high school/fire you/etc) this probably wouldn’t count, as they tend to suggest that it is rape if the person is threatened by denial of something to which they have a right. Schulhoffer wrote a lot on this. But here, it doesn’t appear Megan has a tight to a place to hide. Legally, though, Ordin maybe committing an offense by not informing the authorities, presuming he knows she is wanted, and both of them maybe committing prostitution related offenses. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/11 "2010-10-01T18:29:20Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > In the This-is-Why-the-Guy-Needs-to-have-his-jaw-broken state. Morally, in other words, rather than legally. > > I won’t address the rest of your post because I have confidence in your correctness on legal issues. I was not speaking in legal terms. Gotcha. I did not think you were doing that, primarily because the OP clearly ruled that out: > [@Lumpy](#): > > Now let me make myself clear: I believe the depicted scenerio is morally and pyschologically rape; but legally, can someone be charged with rape for basically being a manipulative bastard who takes advantage of someone’s fears and weaknesses? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/12 "2010-10-01T18:30:23Z")
> [@villa](#): > > …and both of them maybe committing prostitution related offenses. Maybe she might offer a necessity defense to the prostitution charge. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/13 "2010-10-01T18:33:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > In the This-is-Why-the-Guy-Needs-to-have-his-jaw-broken state. Morally, in other words, rather than legally. > > > > I won’t address the rest of your post because I have confidence in your correctness on legal issues. I was not speaking in legal terms. > > Gotcha. I did not think you were doing that, primarily because the OP clearly ruled that out: > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > Now let me make myself clear: I believe the depicted scenerio is morally and pyschologically rape; but legally, can someone be charged with rape for basically being a manipulative bastard who takes advantage of someone’s fears and weaknesses? Not to mention that my recommendation of a broken jaw is clearly against public policy for some stupid reason. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/14 "2010-10-01T18:34:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Maybe she might offer a necessity defense to the prostitution charge. I don’t see how. There is no necessity because she is on the lam. She should, in the eyes of the law, turn herself in to the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/15 "2010-10-01T18:35:38Z")
Yuck! I felt raped just reading it. . . ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/16 "2010-10-01T18:39:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > …and both of them maybe committing prostitution related offenses. > > Maybe she might offer a necessity defense to the prostitution charge. How can it be prostitution? No money is being exchanged. Are you saying that any exchange of sexual services for consideration is prostitution? [In my state prostitition is defined thus:](http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpext.dll/tncode/1191f/11c3f/11d66/11daf?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0#JD_39-13-512) [QUOTE=Michie’s Legal Resources] (5) “Prostitution” means engaging in, or offering to engage in, sexual activity as a business or being an inmate in a house of prostitution or loitering in a public place for the purpose of being hired to engage in sexual activity; [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/17 "2010-10-01T18:42:05Z")
It doesn’t have to be money for it to be prostitution. I don’t know if this would fall under it, which is why I am saying _ **maybe** _ committing prostitution related offenses, but the exchange of things of value for sex may well be seen as prostitution. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/18 "2010-10-01T18:46:20Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > Maybe she might offer a necessity defense to the prostitution charge. > > How can it be prostitution? No money is being exchanged. Are you saying that any exchange of sexual services for consideration is prostitution? > > [In my state prostitition is defined thus:](http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpext.dll/tncode/1191f/11c3f/11d66/11daf?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0#JD_39-13-512) > > [QUOTE=Michie’s Legal Resources] > (5) “Prostitution” means engaging in, or offering to engage in, sexual activity as a business or being an inmate in a house of prostitution or loitering in a public place for the purpose of being hired to engage in sexual activity; [/QUOTE] In Virginia, "Any person who, for money **or its equivalent** , commits adultery, fornication or any act in violation of § 18.2-361, or offers to commit adultery, fornication or any act in violation of § 18.2-361 and thereafter does any substantial act in furtherance thereof, shall be guilty of being a prostitute, or prostitution, which shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor. " ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/19 "2010-10-01T18:47:34Z")
> [@villa](#): > > It doesn’t have to be money for it to be prostitution. Cite, please. (ETA: Never mind; I see \*\*Bricker \*\*as already provided one.) > [@](#): > > I don’t know if this would fall under it, which is why I am saying _ **maybe** _ committing prostitution related offenses, but the exchange of things of value for sex may well be seen as prostitution. By the definition in the cite I provided upthread, she is clearly not engaging in prostitution as the state of Tennessee defines it, as she is not conducting a business in any sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/20 "2010-10-01T18:48:22Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I don’t see how. There is no necessity because she is on the lam. She should, in the eyes of the law, turn herself in to the authorities. I was thinking of an Elizabeth Foreteich-type situation with respect to her concern for her minor child. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728.md?page=2)