# Boundary between seduction and rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728 "2010-10-01T15:20:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/21 "2010-10-01T18:51:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > I don’t see how. There is no necessity because she is on the lam. She should, in the eyes of the law, turn herself in to the authorities. > > I was thinking of an Elizabeth Foreteich-type situation with respect to her concern for her minor child. Who is Elizabeth Foreteich? Googling produced nothing useful. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/22 "2010-10-01T18:59:53Z")
> [@villa](#): > > But here, it doesn’t appear Megan has a tight to a place to hide. It seems like Ordin’s looking for that, too. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/23 "2010-10-01T19:09:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@villa](#): > > > > I don’t see how. There is no necessity because she is on the lam. She should, in the eyes of the law, turn herself in to the authorities. > > I was thinking of an Elizabeth Foreteich-type situation with respect to her concern for her minor child. Wouldn’t it be overcome, though, by the requirement to turn herself in? The child can receive protection there, and for necessity to work, don’t you have to basically have no other legal options? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/24 "2010-10-01T19:10:48Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > I was thinking of an Elizabeth Foreteich-type situation with respect to her concern for her minor child. > > Who is Elizabeth Foreteich? Googling produced nothing useful. [http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=983770](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=983770) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/25 "2010-10-01T19:12:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Who is Elizabeth Foreteich? Googling produced nothing useful. > > [http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=983770](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=983770) Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/26 "2010-10-01T19:12:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > By the definition in the cite I provided upthread, she is clearly not engaging in prostitution as the state of Tennessee defines it, as she is not conducting a business in any sense of the word. I’m not licensed in Tennessee, and while I did go to law school there, our criminal law was almost exclusively based on the model code. Anyway, we never looked at prostitution laws… That said - I would think a prosecutor would say engaging in sexual activity as a business means giving sex on the condition that one receives something of value - money or the equivalent. I don’t think it necessarily requires a repeated action. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/27 "2010-10-01T19:45:33Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > I was thinking of an Elizabeth Foreteich-type situation with respect to her concern for her minor child. > > Wouldn’t it be overcome, though, by the requirement to turn herself in? The child can receive protection there, and for necessity to work, don’t you have to basically have no other legal options? I don’t recall if your belief in the lack of legal options has be subjectively real or objectively reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/28 "2010-10-01T23:25:49Z")
I would have termed this the boundary between coercion and rape. And I’m not sure what that is either. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/29 "2010-10-02T05:38:18Z")
Wow. I’d call that forcing sex by coercion. If you don’t want to call it rape, fine, I don’t mind unpacking that word, but it still feels legally actionable to me. To put it another way: Yes, it’s rape; at the very least there is the threat of exposure; her being on the lam doesn’t void that except in the most bizarre authoritarian construction of defining coercion as dependent on legal rights & rights as dependent on the state’s opinion of you at the time. I don’t know what Bricker is smoking. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/30 "2010-10-02T14:32:46Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Wow. I’d call that forcing sex by coercion. If you don’t want to call it rape, fine, I don’t mind unpacking that word, but it still feels legally actionable to me. > > To put it another way: Yes, it’s rape; at the very least there is the threat of exposure; her being on the lam doesn’t void that except in the most bizarre authoritarian construction of defining coercion as dependent on legal rights & rights as dependent on the state’s opinion of you at the time. I don’t know what Bricker is smoking. Perhaps you could provide a cite to the law, then, rather than make snide comments about my analysis. Since, you know, I DID provide a cite to the law, at least in my state. And in that cite, I showed that the “intimidation” component of the crime requires the fear of bodily harm. This isn’t IMHO. The OP specifically asked for the LEGAL liability in this situation; you have not only proffered an uncited opinion instead of factual analysis, but snarked at me for my cited, supported conclusions. I don’t give a rats ass what it “feels” like to you. What is the law that’s being violated here? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/31 "2010-10-02T17:47:37Z")
So you’re saying it’s impossible to prosecute in this case? Really? The law is a ass… I find that hard to believe. Are there civil remedies, or is the law going to insist that she’s just a whore? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/32 "2010-10-02T20:49:12Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So you’re saying it’s impossible to prosecute in this case? Really? The law is a ass… I find that hard to believe. Are there civil remedies, or is the law going to insist that she’s just a whore? I am not aware of any criminal law or civil tort breached by the actions shown in those two comics. She never once says “No,” or offers any resistance; he never once makes any threats of physical harm, or indeed of anything else. So I’m not even sure what you find hard to believe. The action is boorish, but not criminal. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/33 "2010-10-03T06:35:40Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So you’re saying it’s impossible to prosecute in this case? Really? The law is a ass… I find that hard to believe. Are there civil remedies, or is the law going to insist that she’s just a whore? Yes rape law can be an ass. For example, a principal telling a student that if she doesn’t fuck him, she won’t graduate - not rape. A man telling a girl if she doesn’t have sex with him, he will call up the detention center and have her sent back - not rape. This isn’t criminally actionable in any jurisdiction I know the law of. Rape (in the US, and excluding things like rape by deception, statutory rape etc) usually requires two central elements - an absence of consent and force or the reasonable fear of force. They aren’t present here. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/34 "2010-10-03T06:48:46Z")
Just out of curiosity (and because it’s late and I’m having trouble thinking about this on my own), what scenarios caused rape law to exclude such things? The potential for abusive prosecutions? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/35 "2010-10-03T15:12:23Z")
Men write the laws. Wait, no, that’s wrong & sexist. Men who engaged in coercive sex themselves wrote the laws, & no one has bothered to change them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/36 "2010-10-03T20:13:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes rape law can be an ass. For example, a principal telling a student that if she doesn’t fuck him, she won’t graduate - not rape. A man telling a girl if she doesn’t have sex with him, he will call up the detention center and have her sent back - not rape. > > This isn’t criminally actionable in any jurisdiction I know the law of. > > Rape (in the US, and excluding things like rape by deception, statutory rape etc) usually requires two central elements - an absence of consent and force or the reasonable fear of force. They aren’t present here. “Do this or I’ll flunk you” doesn’t count as a threat of force? It’s not physical force, sure, but it still looks like force, to me. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/37 "2010-10-03T21:33:13Z")
At the very least, it would fall under the catagory of “sexual harassment”. If the subject is a minor, it would most certainly be rape – wouldn’t it **Bricker**? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/38 "2010-10-04T00:58:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > “Do this or I’ll flunk you” doesn’t count as a threat of force? It’s not physical force, sure, but it still looks like force, to me. I don’t know of a single jurisdiction where that would be “force.” This crime would be punishable in Virginia if committed against anyone under 18, because the law prohibits even proposing a sexual act when a person “maintains a custodial or supervisory relationship” over the child. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/39 "2010-10-04T01:00:01Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Just out of curiosity (and because it’s late and I’m having trouble thinking about this on my own), what scenarios caused rape law to exclude such things? The potential for abusive prosecutions? At common law, even intimidation was not sufficient; force was required. I suppose it arises from the same way of thinking that created the old “iimediate outcry” requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728/40 "2010-10-04T01:09:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > At the very least, it would fall under the catagory of “sexual harassment”. If the subject is a minor, it would most certainly be rape – wouldn’t it **Bricker**? Depends on the jurisdiction. In Virginia, if the victim were under 16, it would be rape. Between 16 and 18, it would be a misdemeanor called “Causing or encouraging acts rendering children delinquent,” which prohibits even consensual sexual intercourse between anyone under 18 and an adult. This is only a misdemeanor, punishable with up to one year in jail and a $2500 fine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boundary-between-seduction-and-rape/555728.md?page=3)