# Bounty Killer, Elephant Man, TOK & Other Artists CDs BANNED in Brighton UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426 "2004-12-01T01:36:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/21 "2004-12-01T17:55:59Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > How the hell do you not see an incitement to kill gay men for being gay as not hateful? > > **Pookah** , there’s a difference between talking about murder and encouraging people to commit it. While I’m generally very strongly pro-free speech, this is a restriction that I think I can live with. True free speech would include the freedom to say things that you and me find truly awful. Also, you can lock me in a room and play Beanie Man records at me all day for a month and I can guarantee you I will not go out and shoot anyone. For that to happen the underlying problems have to be already there. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/22 "2004-12-01T18:44:33Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > Disclaimer: I see nothing all that hateful in the lyrics posted. You see nothing hateful in “drown the faggot,” “burn the faggot” and “kill the faggot with a laser”? Really? What word would you use to describe the sentiment of lyrics calling for your violent and painful death? Loving? Compassionate? > [@JBW](#): > > And though I detest their general message, the artist’s rights to free speech trump the offended parties right to hands down. Not being an expert on British law (and I suspect you’re not either) I can’t say with certainty that the guarantees of free speech in Great Britain trump the rights of those targeted by the lyrics. It’s irrelevant anyway, since Brighton is not seeking to ban through legal menas either the artists or their music. Encouraging a store not to sell music by particular performers is not a ban. > [@JBW](#): > > this hypocritical (non-binding) ‘ban’ 1. This is not a ban, regardless of your cutesie-pie attempts to dress it up as one with your coy single-quotes. 2. Where is the “hypocrisy” > [@JBW](#): > > where do you stand on the banning of: > > Rage Against The Machine? > Body Count / Ice T? > Eminem? I don’t think any of them should be banned. AFAIK, none of them have been banned in Brighton or anywhere else in Britain. Neither have these reggae performers, for you see, encouraging stores not to sell their records is in no way banning them. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/23 "2004-12-02T11:33:48Z")
It is possible to ban records in Britain - they fall under the remit of the Obscene Publications Act, and if they advocate specific criminal acts then they can be prosecuted (but, ironically, not banned) for incitement etc. What has been happening to these dancehall acts is that they are finding it very hard to get promotion outside the (extensive) pirate radio network. Local authority owned venues (very common outside london) won’t allow them to play at their venues and private promoters find it hard to get insurance for this kind of act (this has happened in the past to acts as diverse as The Sex Pistols and So Solid Crew). So the music is restricted, if not actually banned. Also, if rap acts have managed to pursuade an entire generation of “yoofs” that being a criminal pimp is the acme of human achievement along with knocking up as may hos as possible and being too kool for skool, then these dancehall tosspots may well influence the same weed-addled teenagers that “poof-bashing” is as acceptable as wearing ridiculous trousers and chavtastic Elizabeth Duke bling. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/24 "2004-12-02T12:44:54Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > You see nothing hateful in “drown the faggot,” “burn the faggot” and “kill the faggot with a laser”? Not if it’s Peter Tatchell or any other member of OutRage!, I don’t. Nothing in this thread is so offensive as the idea that people are listening to a man who has said to my personal knowledge that heterosexuals shouldn’t have any rights. Incidentally, shouldn’t this be in the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/25 "2004-12-02T12:57:26Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > a man who has said to my personal knowledge that heterosexuals shouldn’t have any rights. Citey citey cite, please? All I can google up is [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3030328.stm): > [@](#): > > “[Plans for gay civil unions are] divisive, heterophobic and discriminatory to exclude unmarried heterosexual couples,” he said. > > “Cohabiting heterosexuals also lack legal recognition and protection. This is a grave injustice.” Doesn’t seem he’s saying us heteros shouldn’t have rights - quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/26 "2004-12-02T13:04:39Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Not if it’s Peter Tatchell or any other member of OutRage!, I don’t. Nothing in this thread is so offensive as the idea that people are listening to a man who has said to my personal knowledge that heterosexuals shouldn’t have any rights. You sure about this? Tatchell is a complete balloon, but I can’t imagine him saying something like this. He does however completely bugger-up his cause every time he opens his mouth ot bothers some harmless old bishop. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/27 "2004-12-02T15:27:30Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > You sure about this? I’m absolutely sure - though providing a cite will be rather difficult, I’m afraid, **jjimm**. You see, the statement was made by Tatchell to me in private conversation in October 1995, when he visited Aberdeen University to speak in a debate on gay adoption rights. I know one other person on the committee heard him say it, but I can’t recall who it was now and I’m no longer in touch with any of the Debater mob anyway. I understand if you don’t want to take my unsupported word for it, but SFAIAC no matter what he says in public, what he said to me in private is what he really thinks. Fanatics like him don’t make U-turns. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/28 "2004-12-02T15:36:08Z")
I don’t think this thread is about art and entertainment, I think it’s a Great Debate on freedom of speech, and I’m moving it there. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/29 "2004-12-02T16:25:56Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Not if it’s Peter Tatchell or any other member of OutRage!, I don’t. Nothing in this thread is so offensive as the idea that people are listening to a man who has said to my personal knowledge that heterosexuals shouldn’t have any rights. Ah. So it’s OK to kill faggots, as long as it’s the _right_ faggots being killed. Gotcha. Can’t say as I’m as initmately familiar with Tatchell as you, but whatever his comment about heterosexuals not having rights I have to admire anyone who can throw a scare into the likes of President Mugabe. ---
**Author:** ![amphibian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@amphibian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amphibian)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/30 "2004-12-02T17:55:42Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Not if it’s Peter Tatchell or any other member of OutRage!, I don’t. Nothing in this thread is so offensive as the idea that people are listening to a man who has said to my personal knowledge that heterosexuals shouldn’t have any rights. > > Incidentally, shouldn’t this be in the Pit? Don’t see how this (though, if true, is very disappointing) is really relevant - the lyrics in question obviously don’t concern any specific gay person. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/31 "2004-12-02T18:19:57Z")
**Evil Death** , I know how frustrating it is to know something for definite, but not to be able to prove it. However, based on the fairly outrageous (pun intended) actions of OutRage in the UK during the 1980s, namely outing celebrities on fairly tenuous evidence, who had no influence on policy, and who were at worst only guilty of personal hypocrisy, in this case I’m prepared to take you at your word. > [@Otto](#): > > I have to admire anyone who can throw a scare into the likes of President Mugabe. This is one of the reasons I admire him, despite his apparent extremism. He put himself in harm’s way, got knocked unconscious by Mugabe’s goons, and made a great political point. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/32 "2004-12-02T19:23:56Z")
So lets try change things around to gain some perspective, Let’s imagine some country band from Birmingham Alabama coming up with some lyrics, oh I dunno, something like… Alleged translation: Hear this little negro who sings a slave song… To kill this fool, to me that is no stress Murder him fast, like Federal Express OK, anybody want to defned the right of free speech here, no ? well shut the f\*\*\* up then! Apologies to **JohnBckWLD** ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/33 "2004-12-02T20:36:05Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > OK, anybody want to defned the right of free speech here, no ? well shut the f\*\*\* up then! You have the right to tell people to ‘shut the foque up’ - That’s not surpressing anyone’s freedom of speech or expression. Members of Outrage! have the right to protest and scream bloody hell at any atists they deem hateful - That’s their right…and something I support. But, no politician should vote to surpress any form of speech in a free society, even if that ban is ceremonial and non-binding. As pointed out by PookahMacPhellimey: > [@](#): > > You can lock me in a room and play Beanie Man records at me all day for a month and I can guarantee you I will not go out and shoot anyone. For that to happen the underlying problems have to be already there. I’ll take your country band example and raise you [a Resistance records artist](http://resistance.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=32&osCsid=513bff827fdf0ac14f68e7d9bf76f3d4). (The same people that brought you the online video game known as Ethnic Cleansing. It’s hateful garbage, it’s in English and it can only be defined as racist and anti-semetic. But it’s not slander, it’s speech. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/34 "2004-12-02T20:45:52Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > It’s hateful garbage, it’s in English and it can only be defined as racist and anti-semetic. But it’s not slander, it’s speech. Albeit hate speech. Speech that may well provoke those who harbour anti-Semitic tendencies into ‘doing something about it’, when they otherwise might not have for fear of chatisment by society, but hey, its a free country right? We’ll do something about it when someone gets shot or knifed or maimed because of who they are, right? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/35 "2004-12-02T20:47:17Z")
So who here supports my right to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater? ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/36 "2004-12-02T22:37:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Angua_ > but hey, its a free country right? We’ll do something about it when someone gets shot or knifed or maimed because of who they are, right? Frankly, yes, if the alternative is banning speech because it might possibly in some circumstance lead to something bad. Do you support suppressing comments that the US/UK/some other country is evil and must be destroyed? After all, we’re in a War on Terror and such language could lead to violence. I think it’s very easy to say something’s offensive and therefore shouldn’t be allowed to be said, but you need to consider the ramifications. I’d prefer not to give government the power to control speech because then it becomes just another political tool. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ultrafilter_ > So who here supports my right to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater? A more accurate issue is whether I support your right to post on a message board about yelling “Fire” in a crowded theater. The point of the example of shouting fire in a crowded theater was to say that free speech is the rule but that there are exceptions (e.g., speech that creates a clear danger) and I don’t think anybody’s argued otherwise in this thread. Posting “Fire” is unlikely to cause a stampede. Yelling it in the theatre is more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/37 "2004-12-02T22:46:33Z")
> [@Zoff](#): > > I think it’s very easy to say something’s offensive and therefore shouldn’t be allowed to be said, but you need to consider the ramifications. Such as actually being beaten up or attacked or knifed or killed because you’re gay, or because your skin colour is different? Those are the very real ramifications of letting things like this be said without any sort of condemnation whatsoever. But I suppose in your world view, those of us who aren’t heterosexual caucasian males should just suck it up, cause we’re different, right? And we shouldn’t stop those who hate us saying insulting things about us, and advocating our murders, because well, its not your fault if someone acts on it. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/38 "2004-12-02T22:52:25Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Angua_ > But I suppose in your world view, those of us who aren’t heterosexual caucasian males should just suck it up, cause we’re different, right? And we shouldn’t stop those who hate us saying insulting things about us, and advocating our murders, because well, its not your fault if someone acts on it. Are you willing to discuss this in good faith? I’m honestly asking. I responded to your post and your very first response is to imply that I don’t care if non-heterosexual non-caucasians are killed. I think this issue is very nuanced and am interested in discussing it, but if the response will be “you just hate everybody and want them to die” I don’t see much hope. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/39 "2004-12-02T22:58:30Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Ah. So it’s OK to kill faggots, as long as it’s the _right_ faggots being killed. Gotcha. Way to go, Otto - you just implied that executing black murderers is racist. It is not alright to hate people because they are gay. It _is_ alright to hate them because they are assholes. I hate Tatchell because he is an asshole. Got it? ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/40 "2004-12-02T23:11:32Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > …Letting things like this be said without any sort of condemnation whatsoever… I’ll repeat, “Members of Outrage! have the right to protest and scream bloody hell at any atists they deem hateful - That’s their right…and something I support” Just don’t expect everyone to jump on you banned-wagon. > [@Angua](#): > > …We shouldn’t stop those who hate us saying insulting things about us, and advocating our murders, because well, its not your fault if someone acts on it… What else would you like to see censored? Are you nominating yourself to be the judge of whether art is: Pornographic…or erotic? Violent…or angst ridden? Inciteful…or an off the cuff outburst? Light hearted satire…or stern criticism? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426.md?page=3)