# Bounty Killer, Elephant Man, TOK & Other Artists CDs BANNED in Brighton UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426 "2004-12-01T01:36:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![amphibian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@amphibian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amphibian)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/41 "2004-12-02T23:11:38Z")
Still waiting for an answer… Anyway, he may be an arsehole but he hasn’t murdered anyone! So yeah, calling for his death would be kind of wrong. Regardless not the question here, because these lyrics are concerned with all gay people and probably affect most negatively those in the Caribbean. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/42 "2004-12-02T23:16:11Z")
> [@Zoff](#): > > Are you willing to discuss this in good faith? I’m honestly asking. I responded to your post and your very first response is to imply that I don’t care if non-heterosexual non-caucasians are killed. > > I think this issue is very nuanced and am interested in discussing it, but if the response will be “you just hate everybody and want them to die” I don’t see much hope. That is not what my response is supposed to imply at all. I can see the need and the point of freedom of speech, and I can see your point of view. However, from my point of view, the point of view of a young Indian, (not obviously) Muslim woman, living in Britain in the current political climate, I can see why laws against inticement to hatred because of race/sexual orientation are a good thing. They provide some degree of protection for minority groups, who would otherwise be living in very real fear of going out, being themselves, and generally enjoying the same rights and privileges of a normal civilised society that everyone else seems to enjoy. When I was growing up, the Enticement to Hatred Laws were far less stringent than what they are, and I went to school in a predominantly white area, in fact I was the only Indian person in the school. From my own experience, the headteacher of my school was a racist bully, I saw his actions myself, and I was disgusted, and he made no bones about the fact that he wasn’t happy that there was a ‘Paki’ in his school, who was also reasonably intelligent and outshining the white kids. I hated school because of this one man, making racist remarks, constantly and systematically bullying me, and abusing his position because I was a different skin colour. Even today, the BNP (British Nationalist Party - an extremely right wing fascist party) has gained a foothold in the town I grew up in, the one my parents still live in. The tensions its created are very real, very palpable – my parents have had attacks on themselves and their property, its happened at least once a month, and its increased since the BNP got themselves a seat on the town council; _this_ is what happens when free speech of the type “kill gays”, “anyone who’s not ‘English’ get out of the country”, and the like are allowed to be said, unchecked, uncondemned, under the guise of free speech. I would love to discuss this with you, I really would. I appreciate that my point of view is probably coloured by being part of a minority group, which does have a lot of hate speech (and hate actions) directed at it, but I would like to know why you believe that the right for a person to say anything they want, regardless of the effect it may have on another group of people, should be more sacred than the rights of a minority group to feel safe and secure in a supposedly tolerant society. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/43 "2004-12-02T23:34:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …Eminem only talks about killing his ex-wife, and it’s understood that he tries to be outrageous and/or funny… > [@Angua](#): > > those of us who aren’t heterosexual caucasian males should just suck it up, cause we’re different By the ‘pro-supression’ of speech standards I see in this thread, I guess Eminem has blood on his hands. [White man killed by teen who repeatedly listened to Eminem & D-12’s ‘Fight Music’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2690771.stm) > [@](#): > > David Pallister, 18, of Ashley Road, South Shields admitted murder…The court heard the teenager listened repeatedly to a track by Eminem’s band D-12 called Fight Music, which includes references to extreme violence and sex. [Q: Should city councils across the country start passing resolutions calling for this to be removed from stores?](http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/d12/fightmusic.html) "_…The type of shit that causes mass confusion and drastic movement of people actin stupid… …I come to every club with intention to do harm With a prosthetic arm and smellin like Boone’s Farm Hidin under tables as soon as I hear alarms Paranoid thief that’ll steal from his own moms Connivin Kon, Artis with a bomb Strapped to my stomach screamin, “Let’s get it on!”… …Push your baby carriage into the street, 'til it’s mince meat Your mens been beat the minute I step onto your street This is fight music!.. You know why my hands are so numb? (No) Cause my grandmother sucked my dick and I didn’t cum (oh) Smacked this whore for talkin crap (bitch) So what if she’s handicapped, the bitch said Bizarre couldn’t rap I fuckin hate you; I’ll take your drawers down and rape you…_ I ain’t saying It’s my type of music - but I still don’t want to see it censored. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/44 "2004-12-02T23:41:41Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > By the ‘pro-supression’ of speech standards I see in this thread, I guess Eminem has blood on his hands. I don’t think you’re referring to me, but I can’t tell. By the standards I’m using - those of the US Supreme Court - Eminem’s speech is not incitement. Eminem is not exhorting his listeners to kill anyone. This is really the same boring old Suicide Solution thing. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/45 "2004-12-03T00:26:50Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > OK, anybody want to defned the right of free speech here, no ? well shut the f\*\*\* up then! I will absolutely defend the hypothetical band’s right to sing about any subject they want. If they’re stupid enough to record a song with the suggested lyrics, they’re free to do so. Just like the Birmingham city council is free to pass a resolution condemning them and encouraging record stores not to stock their records. As long as they do not exercise their power against the band (by moving for a ban, for example) they are free to take an ethical stand against hate music and encourage others to do the same. But the thing is, no one who hoped for any mainstream success would dare record such a song about blacks. It’s not acceptable. It _is_ still acceptable to go for mainstream success with songs with anti-gay lyrics. > [@Evil Death](#): > > Way to go, Otto - you just implied that executing black murderers is racist. Wow. Just, wow. I can’t for the life of me remember ever seeing a longer leap to a conclusion, ever. You say that it’s all right to advocate the violent deaths of gay people who belong to a certain pressure group, I call you on it because it’s well, sort of evil, and _I’ve_ made an implication about the death penalty? What drugs are you on exactly? Is this the usual quality of the “debate” in GD? No wonder I have no use for it. Moving this to GD was a shitty decision. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/46 "2004-12-03T00:43:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think you’re referring to me, but I can’t tell. By the standards I’m using - those of the US Supreme Court - Eminem’s speech is not incitement. Eminem is not exhorting his listeners to kill anyone. This is really the same boring old Suicide Solution thing. Exactly. Whereas the lyrics by Bounty Killer, Elephant Man et al, _are_ advocating the murder of gays. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/47 "2004-12-03T00:59:05Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > But, no politician should vote to surpress any form of speech in a free society, even if that ban is ceremonial and non-binding. Right, just like they can’t arrest you for incitement to riot. Or fraud. Or conspiracy to commit a crime. Or threatening someone. :rolleyes: Speech in furtherance of a crime is illegal in pretty much all of the free world. Murder and assault are crimes. Get used to it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/48 "2004-12-03T13:38:57Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > You say that it’s all right to advocate the violent deaths of gay people who belong to a certain pressure group, I call you on it because it’s well, sort of evil, and _I’ve_ made an implication about the death penalty? What drugs are you on exactly? Obviously not the ones you’re taking, to keep on saying that I’m advocating Tatchell’s death because he’s gay after I’ve told you that his being gay has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/49 "2004-12-03T17:29:41Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Obviously not the ones you’re taking, to keep on saying that I’m advocating Tatchell’s death because he’s gay after I’ve told you that his being gay has nothing to do with it. Well actually, I’m not keeping on saying it. I was recapping. That you would advocate for his death at all is pretty fucked up, regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/50 "2004-12-03T19:02:45Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Well actually, I’m not keeping on saying it. I was recapping. A recap would not include a meatheaded misinterpretation that had already been corrected. > [@](#): > > That you would advocate for his death at all is pretty fucked up, regardless. If I made a habit of it, I suppose it would, but I don’t. Tatchell is a special case; someone who everyone from homophobes to gays can hate with equal ferocity. ---
**Author:** ![amphibian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@amphibian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amphibian)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2004, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/51 "2004-12-05T11:56:10Z")
I never thought I’d enounter someone who actually thought it’s okay to call for someone’s murder if you don’t like what they’re saying. Christ alive. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/52 "2004-12-05T18:36:33Z")
> [@amphibian](#): > > I never thought I’d enounter someone who actually thought it’s okay to call for someone’s murder if you don’t like what they’re saying. Have you actually heard what Tatchell is saying? I have. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/53 "2004-12-05T22:43:13Z")
> [@Jervoise](#): > > 1. Inciting others to commit _murder_ is not a protected form of speech. It is in the United States. “Freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing _imminent_ lawless action and is _likely to incite or produce such action._” BRANDENBURG v. OHIO, 395 U.S. 444 (1969) Saying “burn the fags” in a song is unlikely to actually produce any lawless action. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/54 "2004-12-05T23:14:43Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > It is in the United States. However, unless I’ve been asleep for a while, Brighton is **not** a part of the USA, but rather a part of the _United Kingdom_. Hence, we have our own laws and law-makers, which are different to the ones in the United States of America, and in the United Kingdom, of which Brighton is a part, inciting others to commit criminal acts _is_ against the law. ---
**Author:** ![Aagramn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Aagramn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aagramn)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/55 "2004-12-06T01:10:25Z")
There is a bit of history behind this. In Jamaica, homophobia and violence against gays is rampant. Homosexual acts are illegal, and 96% of the population are oposed to legalising them. > **[Chilling call to murder as music attacks gays](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/26/gayrights.arts)** > > Jamaican rights activist's death is officially said to be motivated by robbery, but campaigners point to pop-fuelled homophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/56 "2004-12-06T05:52:10Z")
> [@Aagramn](#): > > There is a bit of history behind this. In Jamaica, homophobia and violence against gays is rampant. Homosexual acts are illegal, and 96% of the population are oposed to legalising them. That’s a staggering number. The 4% opposed, I’m guessing, are homosexuals. The entire hetero population hates them. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/57 "2004-12-06T05:54:10Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > However, unless I’ve been asleep for a while, Brighton is **not** a part of the USA, but rather a part of the _United Kingdom_. Hence, we have our own laws and law-makers, which are different to the ones in the United States of America, and in the United Kingdom, of which Brighton is a part, inciting others to commit criminal acts _is_ against the law. Of course. But in this one area of freedom, The U.S is more free than Europe. “Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech” is a pretty clear directive. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/58 "2004-12-06T09:31:13Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Have you actually heard what Tatchell is saying? I have. What he says is complete balls. The man’s a grade one wanker and cockmonger. This is true. What makes us better than those dancehall berks is that we don’t actually want him dead for his general all-round tossery. Ignore him and he’ll go away. I find this works for all Labour party candidadtes. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/59 "2004-12-06T09:47:35Z")
> [@](#): > > **Blalron** :in this one area of freedom, The U.S is more free than Europe. Again, that depends on what each state interprets “freedom” as comprising. Shouting “Bomb!” on an aeroplane, or in this case advocating the murder of a minority, is _literally_ “more free” perhaps, but one could argue that the consequences of such speech _impugns_ the freedom of others by unnecessarily risking harm upon their person (from panic in the first instance and incited violence in the other). Is the anarchic violence of Somalia “more free” again? ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2004, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426/60 "2004-12-06T09:53:05Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Of course. But in this one area of freedom, The U.S is more free than Europe. “Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech” is a pretty clear directive. Personally, I’d prefer the freedom of being able to walk down the street without being attacked for who I am. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bounty-killer-elephant-man-tok-other-artists-cds-banned-in-brighton-uk/277426.md?page=4)