# Bow down and worship this flag! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2001, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821 "2001-11-16T21:42:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/21 "2001-11-17T05:15:24Z")
Questions for discussion: How exactly does not saying the pledge “benefit” him? How many times longer could he survive not saying the pledge than not using the currency? What if he just marker-penned the word “God” off of every bill he received? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/22 "2001-11-17T05:19:14Z")
The pledge doesn’t benefit him. Using the money does. By using one and not the other, he’s being hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/23 "2001-11-17T05:32:01Z")
So where’s the line between “being hypocritical” and “choosing what hill to die on?” ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/24 "2001-11-17T05:35:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > \*\*The pledge doesn’t benefit him. Using the money does. By using one and not the other, he’s being hypocritical. \*\* Is he? No one is required to say the pledge to get along in society. However, it’s impossible to get through a day without using money. I take the position that participating in something necessary does not make one a hypocrite. People may not like what they have to do, but there’s no grounds to insult them for doing it. \*\* > [@](#): > > I call myself an agnostic. But it galls me when someone can’t say the pledge because “God” is in it. That’s bullshit.\*\* No it isn’t, and you’re just being silly here. Stating a belief in one nation under God when one does not believe such a thing is lying. Do you really think that those who won’t lie for convenience’s sake are somehow worse than those who do? ---
**Author:** ![Crunchy\_Frog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ebca7d/32.png) [@Crunchy\_Frog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crunchy_Frog)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/25 "2001-11-17T05:44:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > **Yeah, it’s _so rude_ to hold on to a personal philosophy in the face of adversity.** First, I’d like to remind you that the first part of the post you quoted sides with **Jelly Donut** , says there is no obligation for a student to stand, and the teacher was in the wrong. I was simply asking if for one day, would it have been so wrong. It’s not really a big deal, I don’t care if he stands or not. Just wondering. And **Reeder** : > [@](#): > > **The pledge doesn’t benefit him. Using the money does. By using one and not the other, he’s being hypocritical.** Gonna have to disagree with you here. This is an oversimplification of the situation. One cannot simply choose to not use money. It is a necessity of life. ---
**Author:** ![Palve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a698b9/32.png) [@Palve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palve)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/26 "2001-11-17T05:45:36Z")
**Reeder** Hypocritical?! I **have** to use money. I don’t like it. I don’t like the fact that it says “God” on it. But that doesn’t mean I can’t _buy_ anything. I don’t say the Pledge of Allegiance because it’s an _option_ which I choose not to do. Using money is obligatory to stay alive. I’m a vegetarian, but I’d eat meat if I had to in order to stay alive. That’s not hypocritical. The Constitution gives me the right to not love my country and the right to express that I don’t love it. Please explain to me how giving up my life, my job, my friends, my family, my community, etc. to go to a more secular nation would benefit me in any way. If your car has a flat tire, do you buy a new car? No. You attempt to fix what’s wrong with the one you own. I can do my part in trying to fix the problems in America by voicing my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Sealemon88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Sealemon88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sealemon88)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/27 "2001-11-17T05:55:46Z")
All I ask is that if you’re gonna go out and fly a flag now to show how American you are, then please learn how ot fly the flag correctly. Pinning it to the side of a building is pretty bad. Letting it touch the ground is much worse. On a seperate note, one of the things I cherish most about my country is that I can critisize it, the government, or anyone in the government in whatever public forum I chose. Don’t you DARE tell me that my only options are conformity or renouncing my citizinship. If you do, then I’d daresay that YOU’RE the one who needs to leave, and find a more confortably facist regime to goose-step in. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Harvey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@Max\_Harvey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Harvey)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/28 "2001-11-17T07:29:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JellyDonut \* > \*\*Hypocritical?! I **have** to use money. \*\* With a check card it should be possible to live a fairly full “American” life in this society without using actual U.S. currency directly. You can’t (yet) eat at most fast-food joints, or lend money to people easily, with just a check card. But you probably shouldn’t be doing those anyway. 🙂 The God-on-the-money argument **Reeder** is using is ridiculous. Why would anyone against “under God” be swayed by invoking **another** violation of SOCAS? It’s like saying to an NRA member, “How can you be against outlawing handguns? The Brady Bill outlaws assault rifles!” What’s the NRA member going to say in response to that? Say I chop off someone’s finger, then they start whining when I start to chop off another. “Hey, why are you complaining? What about that first finger I amputated? Ha, I’ve run rings around you logically!” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\* > The Constitution gives me the right to not love my country and the right to express that I don’t love it. \*\* Actually the Constitution doesn’t give anyone any rights. It is meant to protect **inalienable** rights from being encroached by the government. (I hate to get sniffy, but it’s a huge distinction.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/29 "2001-11-17T12:12:38Z")
Religious former-Republican still-patriotic American type checking in here: The pledge of allegiance is worhsipping the flag in a way. That’s very much the reason why the Jehova’s Witnesses don’t honour national flags or other emblems of nationality. The inclusion of the words “under God” unmistakably make the pledge a religious exercise. There are those, after all, who don’t believe in any deities and those include some religious folks! Also: those words were added to the pledge to show that the US wasn’t like “that godless communist nation, the Soviet Union!” Jelly: Why do you hate the United States. In my experience, it’s a quite decent place and the government respects the Constitution. That Constitution gives you (or recognizes that you have) the right to criticize the government and agitate for reform. In two years, you will be part of that government by exercising your right to vote. Right now, you have the right to agitate for reform. I agree that forcing someone to participate in a religious exercise is not only folly, but unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/30 "2001-11-17T13:04:58Z")
Sometimes it amazes me what people would go to their graves defending. You don’t want to fly a flag? Then don’t. I do not beleive that anyone can make you, nor do I think the government will pass a law telling you that you have to. You simply do your thing and let us do ours and we’ll all live in a much nicer place. Where the bad feelings start is when you start making statements in either direction that are hurtful and hateful to someone else. It’s taken this country a long time to get to the place it is right now, but it is far far from perfect and I daresay it will never be perfect because there’s always gonna be that few that you can never satisfy under any circumstances. People bitch and moan cause of the money, the flag, the pledge, why oranges are called oranges, why nativity scenes are put on courthouse lawns, what exactly you can say to yourself when a moment of slience is observed, etc. In the basis of life, what the hell difference does it matter? One day, it is for certain, you will die. Life is too short, why get hung up on the simple things? Maybe you say that’s a suck attitude, and maybe it is, but I guarantee that when I get close to death I’ll look back on my life a lot happier than the one who has bitched their entire life. But then again, some people are only happy when they are bitching so that kinda knocks that out. I try to stand firm for the really really important things, and the little things I just let slide off my back. Well, damn, then you can come up with the arguement that what’s important to me may not be what’s important to you and on and on and on. You get the point? You are never, ever gonna make everyone happy and there’s always gonna be someone bitching and moaning over everything. Take it with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![waxteeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@waxteeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waxteeth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/31 "2001-11-17T15:49:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ultress \* > \*\* You don’t want to fly a flag? Then don’t. > You simply do your thing and let us do ours and we’ll all live in a much nicer place. > Where the bad feelings start is when you start making statements in either direction that are hurtful and hateful to someone else. > > \*\* For me the problem starts with statements like… “If you see nothing wrong with covering up these ads and notices with a flag we’ve all seen too fucking much anyway, then I see nothing wrong with taking them down and shoving it up your ass” “Perhaps you utter fuckwads should learn what the hell that flag actually means before you wave it all around and play “Born in the U.S.A.” 24/7. Oh, it’d also help if you learned the true meaning of that, too, you worthless pieces of shit.” All I can say is that I stand up for my beliefs; I waive my flag proudly and can allow for your belief not to waive a flag. I would defend your rights of free speech/expression even if I don’t like your message. However if anyone would try taking my flag down, shoving up my ass, or explaining to me face to face why I was a worthless piece of shit for waiving it I would stomp their fucking ass into the ground. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/32 "2001-11-17T16:04:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waxteeth \* > \*\*However if anyone would try … explaining to me face to face why I was a worthless piece of shit for waiving it I would stomp their fucking ass into the ground. \*\* Uh, presumably he would only have to explain this to you would be if you were 1) waving the flag and 2) shitcanning the first amendment at the same time, as he went into detail about in the OP. (Or if you were playing “Born in the USA” as if it were a patriotic jingle.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/33 "2001-11-17T16:21:01Z")
> [@](#): > > and can allow for your belief not to waive a flag. Based on the OP, I would gues that **lenin** is quite happy to waive the flag. ---
**Author:** ![waxteeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@waxteeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waxteeth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/34 "2001-11-17T16:47:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*I would gues that **lenin** is quite happy to waive the flag. \*\* What’s so sad is that I went back and read the OP again to find out what the hell you were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/35 "2001-11-17T17:46:20Z")
**waxteeth** you wrote “waive” the flag, as opposed to “wave” the flag. So, according to what you wrote, **lenin** would be quite happy to waive the flag, and is doing so right now. ---
**Author:** ![waxteeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@waxteeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waxteeth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/36 "2001-11-17T20:01:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\ ***waxteeth** you wrote “waive” the flag, as opposed to “wave” the flag. \*\* Oh I see it. That’s why I said it was sad in my last post. I actually went back and read the op again trying to figure out what tomndebb was talking about. It’s amazing what doesn’t get communicated reading text only. I should have used a :o. It gets even worse. I stated that I was proud to waive my flag when in fact I am only proud to wave my flag. I will gladly defend your right to wave or waive the flag so long as you do the same for me. Someone wanting the freedom to waive the flag while trying to squelch my freedom to wave the flag is where my problem is. Now that I’ve read the OP numerous times I can see a case that lenin may be saying the freedom to choose waving or waiving is up to the individual and should not be forced down your throat. Fair enough but shoving a flag up another’s ass for making his choice is a strange way to go about it. Perhaps it’s the tone that bothers me. snips: “Tattered cloth, a flag we’ve all seen too fucking much anyway, don’t bitch at me for being unpatriotic. Just because 4,000 people died, Perhaps you utter fuckwads should learn what the hell that flag actually means before you wave it all around, And yet you wave your little flag around, proud to be an American.” ## I know they are out of context but to me it’s all the difference between that and quote: ## Originally posted by ultress You don’t want to fly a flag? Then don’t. You simply do your thing and let us do ours and we’ll all live in a much nicer place. Where the bad feelings start is when you start making statements in either direction that are hurtful and hateful to someone else. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![lenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3bc359/32.png) [@lenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lenin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/37 "2001-11-17T20:13:52Z")
Perhaps you misunderstand me, **waxteeth**. You want to fly your flag, go ahead. But there are certain restrictions for this flag posting that goes under the principle of common sense: [ul] [li]Do not post it on another person’s window without asking[/li][li]Do not post it on another person’s window after asking and getting a ‘no’[/li][li]Do not accuse those who don’t post the flag of being traiterous terrorists[/li][li]Do not post over advertisments and notices on telephone poles[/li]Do not force the flag down everyone’s throat[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![ignatzmouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b2d939/32.png) [@ignatzmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ignatzmouse)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/38 "2001-11-17T20:20:23Z")
> [@](#): > > America > > Love it or leave it. > [@](#): > > I hear there are many countries that don’t have “God” on their money. > Perhaps you could relocate? You would be happier. Reeder, when I think of all the patriotic Americans who gave there live so that the freedom of dissent count remain the cornerstone of our democracy, and then hear people like you do their best to destroy that, I get so mad I cannot even think. America is nothing if it is not an idea. If we fail to preserve the idea, all the sacrifices that have been made in her name are for nothing. I hear that there are a lot of societies that don’t allow dissent. Perhaps you would be happier with them. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/39 "2001-11-17T20:20:54Z")
\>\> play “Born in the U.S.A.” 24/7 You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![ignatzmouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b2d939/32.png) [@ignatzmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ignatzmouse)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821/40 "2001-11-17T20:23:48Z")
Wow, I was angrier than I thought, I should have used preview: when I think of all the patriotic Americans who gave their lives so that freedom of dissent could remain the cornerstone of our democracy. Sorry, blind rage impairs my typing skills. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bow-down-and-worship-this-flag/93821.md?page=3)