# Bowling for Columbine: Anger or agreement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2003, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398 "2003-01-03T10:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/101 "2003-01-06T02:07:43Z")
Any response to the above post is clearly a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/102 "2003-01-06T02:21:58Z")
> [@](#): > > * * * > > I don’t have the link offhand, but I believe he said this on [michaelmoore.com](http://michaelmoore.com). Let me try to find the link… > > Got it. > > From [http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/about/faq.php](http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/about/faq.php) > > Q. Are you really a member of the NRA? > A. Yes. I currently hold a “Life Membership.” I was a junior member and won the NRA Marksman Award when I was a teenager (back when the NRA was known as a gun safety and sportsman organization). I went hunting with the neighborhood kids but there were never any guns in our house. After Columbine, I decided that I would run against Charlton Heston for the presidency of the NRA. If elected, my plan was to try to return the NRA to a gun safety organization, instead of its current agenda of gun fanaticism. The rules said that to run for president, you had to be a member for the past five years or buy a lifetime membership for $750. And that’s what I did. But after a while I realized this endeavor was going to take too much time, so I decided to focus all my attention on the movie I was making. > Yeauh! Er…this is his stated reason for _running for president_ of the NRA, not for _joining_ the NRA, which he did when he was a teenager. Your glee is unwarranted. You have failed to suoport your allegation. ---
**Author:** ![Ulterior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/85f322/32.png) [@Ulterior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulterior)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/103 "2003-01-06T03:30:49Z")
**Susanann** , while I am broadly in agreement with **grienspace** , my young heart is still belaboured with childish naiveté and idealism :rolleyes:; here goes: Once again you respond to analysis and evidence with an unproven and completely demolished assertion, an assertion that proves that you: 1. Lied about the evidence you were giving; 2. Don’t care when that evidence was proven false; 3. Think that one case applies to all, for some reason that completely befuddles me. So just what is your _problem_? -Ulterior ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/104 "2003-01-06T03:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > Let me see if I understand those who talk of the Canadian people… A little hint that might help with understanding…In order to understand, you must first read and comprehend what people are saying rather than to ignore what they are clearly saying and instead imply that they are saying silly things that you have a counterargument for. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > Er…this is his stated reason for running for president of the NRA, not for joining the NRA, which he did when he was a teenager. Well, I think the implication from what Moore said was that he was a junior member when he was young because he participated in markmanship competitions. However, he became a lifetime member because he was considering the bid for the presidency of the NRA, and since he didn’t meet the 5-previous years membership requirement his only option was to buy the membership. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/105 "2003-01-06T03:50:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Er…this is his stated reason for _running for president_ of the NRA, not for _joining_ the NRA, which he did when he was a teenager. Your glee is unwarranted. You have failed to suoport your allegation. \*\* Read the quote again. “The rules said that to run for president, you had to be a member for the past five years or buy a lifetime membership for $750. And that’s what I did.” See, there are two options. One is being a member for the past five years. The other is buying a lifetime membership. Only one of those two would properly fit the next sentence, “And that’s what I did.” I’ll help you, it’s not the first one. As for **Susanann** , she has revealed herself for what she is. I suggest we no longer bother anymore. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/106 "2003-01-06T04:44:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*If that was his “true intent” then that was his intent from childhood, since that’s how long he’s been a member. What was his “true intent” in being a gun safety instructor? \*\* It seems he’s been a member for a long time, but “reaffirmed” his membership recently with the intent to dismantle the NRA as a gun rights organization. Why doesv he explicitly say that guns _are not_ the cause of American viloence in the film? [quote] \*\* I don’t know - to keep his movie from being dismissed outright? If it wasn’t a gun issue, why the big emotional bullshit scene of leaving the girls picture on heston’s porch or whatever? Why the Heston thing at all? > [@](#): > > \*\* > > Oh, and could you actually dig up a _cite_ for the joined-the-NRA-as-a-scheme-to-rub-for-president allegation? > > O \*\* In addition to the actual [bowlingforcolombine.com](http://bowlingforcolombine.com) faq: First [cite](http://www.canoe.ca/JamMoviesArtistsM/moore_michael.html) I found. "Three years ago I was thinking about what I could do to raise peoples’ consciousness with regards to gun control. “My first thought was to update my membership in the NRA, run against Chuck Heston, win and then dismantle the organization. Then I thought, nah, I’ll make a movie instead.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/107 "2003-01-06T05:02:51Z")
It sounds to me like the quote about running for president is a joke. He dismisses guns as a cause of violence by pointing to Canada as a vcountry with the same amount of guns and no violence. He makes absolutely no argument in the movie to outlaw guns. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/108 "2003-01-06T06:48:31Z")
He seemed to be pretty serious in the [bowlingforcolumbine.com](http://bowlingforcolumbine.com) FAQ - that he seriously wanted to do it but it was too time consuming. And I take back what I said - he didn’t seem to ‘reaffirm’ his membership, rather, he seems to have let it lapse at some point and renewed it. In any case, if it’s not about gun control, why is the whole heston bashing thing in there? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/109 "2003-01-06T12:12:37Z")
While I wouldn’t have framed my responses as **Susanann** did, a quick glance at the CDC’s National Institute for Health Statistics annual Death reports (a compilation of deaths-by-cause statistics) does indeed show a homicide rate disproportionately slanted towards a narrow demographic of blacks: Black Males ages 18 to 24-25 (I can’t recall exactly which at the moment). I am not suggesting any racially motivated clap-trap here; just a raw fact. Suicide rates were disproportionately high for White Males, but can’t recall which age bracket(s). I’ll dig up some numbers later after I get home from work. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/110 "2003-01-06T12:52:19Z")
> [@](#): > > It seems he’s been a member for a long time, but “reaffirmed” his membership recently with the intent to dismantle the NRA as a gun rights organization. What would be so bad about changing the focus of the NRA from Gun Rights to Gun Safety? You can still hav ethe gun rights agenda, but promoting safer ownership and use of guns. I fail to see why that would be so bad. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/111 "2003-01-06T15:01:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ExTank \* > \*\*While I wouldn’t have framed my responses as **Susanann** did, a quick glance at the CDC’s National Institute for Health Statistics annual Death reports (a compilation of deaths-by-cause statistics) does indeed show a homicide rate disproportionately slanted towards a narrow demographic of blacks: Black Males ages 18 to 24-25 (I can’t recall exactly which at the moment). > > I am not suggesting any racially motivated clap-trap here; just a raw fact. > > Suicide rates were disproportionately high for White Males, but can’t recall which age bracket(s). I’ll dig up some numbers later after I get home from work. \*\* I hope you are not suggesting that the United States government is engaging in “racially motivated clap-trap”? I simply reported the raw facts from the official United States government U.S. Department of Justice · Office of Justice Programs Bureau of Justice Statistics reports: 51.5% of all murders over the past 25 years were commited by blacks. [http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm) Who commited the most murders in the United States over the past 25 years is more than a “slant”. The suicide rates in the United States are among the lowest in the developed world, compared to other countries like Russia, Finland, Denmark, Canada, Austria, Germany, Japan, etc. [http://christianparty.net/suicide.htm](http://christianparty.net/suicide.htm) . There are few countries in the developed world with lower suicide rates than the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/112 "2003-01-06T15:16:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ExTank \* > \*\*While I wouldn’t have framed my responses as **Susanann** did, a quick glance at the CDC’s National Institute for Health Statistics annual Death reports (a compilation of deaths-by-cause statistics) does indeed show a homicide rate disproportionately slanted towards a narrow demographic of blacks: Black Males ages 18 to 24-25 (I can’t recall exactly which at the moment). > > I am not suggesting any racially motivated clap-trap here; just a raw fact. > > Suicide rates were disproportionately high for White Males, but can’t recall which age bracket(s). I’ll dig up some numbers later after I get home from work. \*\* The United States government U.S. Department of Justice · Office of Justice Programs Bureau of Justice Statistics reports: that over the past 25 years, 59.2% of all felony murders were committed by blacks. [http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm) over the past 25 years, 60.7% of all felony murders were committed by blacks and other minorities. [http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm) over the past 25 years, only 39.2% of all felony murders were commtted by whites. [http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm) By analyzing and breaking down the murder statistics, such as the FBI does, “most” of America, and the overwelming land area of the United States, does not have a very high murder rate at all when compared to other similar countries. Thus, the “gross aggregate homoide rate” reported for all of the United States, when muliplied by .392, puts the murder rates among European americans in the range of most other European countries in the world and far from being called a dangerous place. When further adding in that Americans can choose to carry guns for self-defense in 33 states, the chances of an armed American being murdered, is extremely low, if not the lowest, and no other country in the world would be safer for an armed American who did not live in the 3% of America where most murders occur. ---
**Author:** ![CuriousCanuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@CuriousCanuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CuriousCanuck)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/113 "2003-01-06T15:27:51Z")
Susanann you are seriously infected. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/114 "2003-01-06T15:29:29Z")
That’s nice, Susanann. Now that you’ve proven yourself facially capable of reading and regurgitating statistics when it suits your purposes, are you going to bother to address me or any of the other posters above who demolished your ridiculously false assertion that “[n]early every Canadian province which borders a U.S. state, has a HIGHER murder rate than a U.S. state that borders it”? Go on, take a shot at it. ---
**Author:** ![Ulterior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/85f322/32.png) [@Ulterior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulterior)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/115 "2003-01-06T15:55:24Z")
Beyond that, the difficulty with your logic, **Susanann** , is that earlier you call Canada’s lower proportion of blacks a reason why we have fewer homicides. In doing so, you imply that having a large black population is a causal phenomenon in the commission of murder, and thus, under any circumstances, regardless of the country in question, blacks have a propensity to commit murder. Is that what you’re trying to say? -Ulterior ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/116 "2003-01-06T15:57:41Z")
**TwistofFate** wrote: > [@](#): > > What would be so bad about changing the focus of the NRA from _Gun Rights to Gun Safety_? You can still hav ethe gun rights agenda, but promoting safer ownership and use of guns. Emphasis mine. For over 130 years the NRA was just that, an organization promoting hunter education, gun safety, marksmanship programs, and training military and law enforcement. It has only been in the last 20-25 years, with the proliferation of anti-gun rights organizations, that the NRA has **also** added a gun rights platform into their organizational structure. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/117 "2003-01-06T16:03:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*That’s nice, Susanann. Now that you’ve proven yourself facially capable of reading and regurgitating statistics when it suits your purposes… \*\* Actually, I’ve drawn the opposite conclusion. for example **Susanann** states with cite : > [@](#): > > The suicide rates in the United States are among the lowest in the developed world, compared to other countries like Russia, Finland, Denmark, Canada, Austria, Germany, Japan, etc. > [christianparty.net](http://christianparty.net/suicide.htm) . There are few countries in the developed world with lower suicide rates than the United States. Now if you check out her referenced “cite” you will read > [@](#): > > Since the US Supreme Court banned school prayer in 1963, the extraordinary high suicide rate of American men killed an additional 715,000 of them. > > American women commit suicide at a rate equivalent to the overall suicide rates of England, Ireland, Portugal, Italy, Spain, and Israel. > > American men commit suicide at a rate five times higher than that. Clearly, a 100% contradiction of her stated assertion as she know doubt is confused with exactly what issue she is defending, It must be difficult to defend school prayer/guns/anti-abortion etc all at the same time 😃 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/118 "2003-01-06T16:27:00Z")
Well I did say “facially.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/119 "2003-01-06T17:23:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*What would be so bad about changing the focus of the NRA from Gun Rights to Gun Safety? You can still hav ethe gun rights agenda, but promoting safer ownership and use of guns. > > I fail to see why that would be so bad. \*\* Despite what it seems like in the press, the NRA is still about gun safety. They hold gun safety courses, run tests, visit schools to talk about gun safety (if you see a gun, never touch it) using Eddie the Eagle, run competitions, etc. The majority of what they do in the mundane real world has nothing to do with lobbying, it’s just that is what gets the attention. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398/120 "2003-01-06T17:31:27Z")
I just have to add that **Susanann** does not speak for the vast, overwhelming majority of gun owners. She does us a great disservice by spouting her bizarre, racially tinged views. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-anger-or-agreement/146398.md?page=7)