# Bowling For Columbine: Fact or Fiction **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894 "2003-05-13T06:01:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/21 "2003-05-13T14:25:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Heston made his racist comments in the interview with Moore, not in any speech. There was nothing deceptive about it. Most of the so-called “debunking” of BFC is total shite. There were accusations for instance that Moore staged the scene where he received a gun in a bank. Those accusations were false. Moore was also accused of lying about the Columbine killers going bowling on the morning of the killings. There is conflicting eyewitness testimony on this but several witnesses did tell Moore that they had seen Klebold and Harris there that day. What we’re left with is some selective editing of speeches which are basically irrelevant. Moore is a genius who shows the right-wing in this country for what it is and the only way they can respond is with lying, slandering hatchet pieces in lying, slandering, right-wing rags. \*\* Err, try that again, eh? From the OpinionJournal Link: > [@](#): > > But Jan Jacobson, the bank employee who worked with Mr. Moore on his account, says that only happened because Mr. Moore’s film company had worked for a month to stage the scene. “What happened at the bank was a prearranged thing,” she says. The gun was brought from a gun dealer in another city, where it would normally have to be picked up. And the Sheriff’s report concluded that the two little shits didn’t go bowling that day. No ‘conflicting reports’ that I am aware of. (Except over at Moore’s website, I wager.) At the very least, Moore intentionally obfuscated the truth. More likely, he lied. He is extremely popular with the radical left, but don’t confuse that with any notions that Moore has anything approaching widespread support in America. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/22 "2003-05-13T14:29:47Z")
> [@](#): > > And DtheC has spoken. As usual, content=0, vitriol=off the scale. The only thing you could complain about is the lack of a cite, but “content=0” is hardly an accurate verdict. And people are accusing Moore of “false accusations” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/23 "2003-05-13T14:32:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*There were accusations for instance that Moore staged the scene where he received a gun in a bank. Those accusations were false. \*\* 1. I don’t know if I read it in this forum, but I read a posting of a guy who lives in the city cited by Moore, and he confirmed the gun story. He said that you still get a gun in this bank. 2. I am convinced that not only Moore is working this way, but that this kind of editing is done by all media. The only difference is, that Moore is a leftist. Yes, Moore did edit the Heston speeches and did assemble several of them together to one. But did he change their meaning? No. He changed the emotions, he removed the excuses Heston gives for coming, but he did not change the meaning. He just increased the emotions. That is media. That is done every day every hour every minute on every television channel in the US and in Europe, especially since 911. Whenever I read the NY times and then a similar article in a european journal then sometimes I ask myself if they are writing about the same event. On CNN the Acadamy awards ceremony had been presented which increased boooing during the Moore speech. Then the CNN guy made saracastic comments about Moore talking against the president while the iraquies are being bombed, thus creating the impression that Moore does not care for the iraquies, while on the hand Moore was against the war. This was not the role of the CNN journalist, he should have given objective information, but nobody cares. People care more about Moore, because they don’t like his political statements. That’s the true problem. 1. The point of Heston being a racist was not explained by the anti-moore story linked above. Heston still said “this country was founded by white man”, and he said it in a interview without a cut… I don’t know what Heston did in the 50s, so I can’t argue about him, but it is still possible to be for civil rights and being racist, there is no contradiction. The US constitution mentions equal rights for everybody but still did not consider blacks being “somebody” when it was written, right? Civil rights, yes, but for whom? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/24 "2003-05-13T14:34:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*Err, try that again, eh? > > From the OpinionJournal Link: > > And the Sheriff’s report concluded that the two little shits didn’t go bowling that day. No ‘conflicting reports’ that I am aware of. (Except over at Moore’s website, I wager.) > > At the very least, Moore intentionally obfuscated the truth. More likely, he lied. He is extremely popular with the radical left, but don’t confuse that with any notions that Moore has anything approaching widespread support in America. \*\* The acfcusation was that Moore did not really get the guns at the bank. He did. The sheriff says one thing, the witnesses say another thing. The point is that Moore was told by witnesses that Klebold and Harris had gone bowling that morning. The smear campaign against Moore just reflects the terror of the right at being exposed. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/25 "2003-05-13T14:37:07Z")
Perhaps the scene in the bank was staged, because normally bank clerks worry and will not give you a bank account if you enter the bank with a camera team. That does not change the fact that you get a gun in this bank. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/26 "2003-05-13T14:37:56Z")
Frankly, I don’t see what the big deal is. The factual information presented in BfC was absolutely nothing to do with Moore’s actual themes. It’s background, tangental. The bank scene was good for a laugh, but that’s it. The theme of the movie, as I understood it, is: The endemic violence in America is due to a culture of fear perpetuated by the (non-fiction) media and our politicians. No call for an end to guns at all (except for the K-Mart scene, which was a strange departure from the rest of the film). A debateable proposition, to be sure, and in need of citation (especially as he claimed Canada didn’t have these problems) but utterly unrelated to whether their was any bowling or he could get a gun at a bank. Yes, these do call his conclusions into question, but it’s a fallacy to throw them all away offhand because of some mistakes (the bowling scene, he didn’t make that up, just trusted the wrong sources) and falsehoods (the bank scene). ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/27 "2003-05-13T14:40:50Z")
- 1. I don’t know if I read it in this forum, but I read a posting of a guy who lives in the city cited by Moore, and he confirmed the gun story. He said that you still get a gun in this bank.\* Oh you read it on the internet, it **must** be true. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Harrison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5ac83/32.png) [@John\_Harrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Harrison)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/28 "2003-05-13T14:50:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, Moore did edit the Heston speeches and did assemble several of them together to one. But did he change their meaning? No. He changed the emotions, he removed the excuses Heston gives for coming, but he did not change the meaning. He just increased the emotions. No, he changed the facts. From URL=http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth\_About\_Bowling.html]here. > [@](#): > > Columbine Shooting/Denver NRA Meeting. Bowling portrays this with the following sequence: > > Weeping children outside Columbine; > > Cut to Charlton Heston holding a musket and proclaiming “I have only five words for you: ‘from my cold, dead, hands’”; > > Cut to billboard advertising the meeting, while Moore intones “Just ten days after the Columbine killings, despite the pleas of a community in mourning, Charlton Heston came to Denver and held a large pro-gun rally for the National Rifle Association;” > > Cut to Heston (supposedly) continuing speech… “I have a message from the Mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the Mayor of Denver. He sent me this; it says ‘don’t come here. We don’t want you here.’ I say to the Mayor this is our country, as Americans we’re free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. Don’t come here? We’re already here!” > > The portrayal is one of an arrogant protest in response to the deaths – or, as one reviewer put it, “it seemed that Charlton Heston and others rushed to Littleton to hold rallies and demonstrations directly after the tragedy.” The portrayal is in fact false. > Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting (see links below), whose place and date had been fixed years in advance. > Fact: At Denver, the NRA canceled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members’ meeting; that could not be cancelled because corporate law required that it be held. [No way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members.] > Fact: Heston’s “cold dead hands” speech, which leads off Moore’s depiction of the Denver meeting, was not given at Denver after Columbine. It was given a year later in Charlotte, North Carolina, and was his gesture of gratitude upon his being given a handmade musket, at that annual meeting. > > Fact: When Bowling continues on to the speech which Heston did give in Denver, it carefully edits it to change its theme. > [@](#): > > Mt. Morris shooting/ Flint rally. Bowling continues by juxtaposing another Heston speech with a school shooting of Kayla Rolland at Mt. Morris, MI, just north of Flint. Moore makes the claim that “Just as he did after the Columbine shooting, Charlton Heston showed up in Flint, to have a big pro-gun rally.” > Fact: Heston’s speech was given at a “get out the vote” rally in Flint, which was held when elections rolled by some eight months after the shooting ( Feb. 29 vs Oct. 17, 2000). > > Fact: Bush and Gore were then both in the Flint area, trying to gather votes. Moore himself had been hosting rallies for Green Party candidate Nader in Flint a few weeks before. Emotion my butt. More like omission and flat out fabrication. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/29 "2003-05-13T15:02:51Z")
There was still nothing deceptive about Heston’s interview in which he made the racist comments. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/30 "2003-05-13T15:04:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*But they (we) are only thinking about what a lying asshole he is. \*\* I did say in my OP that I did not want this thread turning into pointless Moore bashing. That’s all you’ve been doing, Mr. Tourette’s. If december can post without bias in a Moore thread, I would think you could do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/31 "2003-05-13T15:08:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **flonks** , with some editing by **Shodan** \* > \*\*1. I don’t know if I read it in this forum, but I read a posting of a guy who lives in the city cited by Moore, and he confirmed…that… > > …Moore does not care for the iraquies… > > …the CNN guy made saracastic comments about Moore…being bombed… > > Moore was against…equal rights for everyone… > > …sometimes I ask myself if the Acadamy awards ceremony had been presented… by white men… > > …being racist, there is no contradiction. > \*\* Just “increasing the emotions.” Regards, Shodan It’s a parody. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/32 "2003-05-13T15:11:20Z")
Remember, folks, if you speak anything but absolute and utter hatred against whites, you are a racist. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/33 "2003-05-13T15:17:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Just “increasing the emotions.” > > Regards, > Shodan > > It’s a parody. Get it? \*\* I got your point, but I don’t think that that was the case in the Heston speeches. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/34 "2003-05-13T15:29:55Z")
Then you haven’t read the cites. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DaveX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/96bed5/32.png) [@DaveX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveX)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/35 "2003-05-13T15:57:14Z")
I’m not sure what the hoopla over the montage of Heston’s speech is all about. I don’t recall any ‘slick editing’ when I saw the film. To me it was a jumbled montage of soundbites… It never once occured to me that they were trying to present it as one speech, or a particular response. The rest of this has been interesing, especially the Lockheed-Martin contradictions in one of the links above. I do have a problem with one ‘fact’ presented in this thread, though: > [@](#): > > Fact: At Denver, the NRA canceled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members’ meeting; that could not be cancelled because corporate law required that it be held. So you are saying that ‘corporate law’ is unquestionable and infallible? It couldn’t be ammended or possibly suspended in response to a tragedy of that magnitude? They wanted to have their meeting and they did. That’s fine, but don’t use some internal policy as incontrovertible justification. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/36 "2003-05-13T16:21:29Z")
**DaveX** wrote: > [@](#): > > They wanted to have their meeting and they did. That’s fine, but don’t use some internal policy as incontrovertible justification. The question is, do you believe that the NRA deliberately stageg the convention in Denver because of Columbine? ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/37 "2003-05-13T16:22:53Z")
Sorry, that should be **staged** … ---
**Author:** ![DaveX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/96bed5/32.png) [@DaveX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveX)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/38 "2003-05-13T16:37:18Z")
No, I didn’t believe it was staged at the time… at the time Columbine happened it was made abundantly clear on almost every news source that the annual meeting was an event scheduled far in advance. I do think the NRA did show a bit of defiance and insensitivity by refusing to relocate or reschedule… /end hijack ---
**Author:** ![Embra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Embra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Embra)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/39 "2003-05-13T16:49:12Z")
I thought the point was not that they _deliberately_ came to Denver to exploit Columbine, simply that they ignored requests by victims’ families to hold their meeting somewhere else. Heston’s speeches (and I was never in doubt that it was a montage, I have to say) reiterated the NRA’s “right” to be in Denver. I thought the point made by the film was that rights should be exercised with consideration for others, and that the NRA’s philosophy was that rights should be exercised simply because they’re there. I’ve got to go to work now, so I hope this topic doesn’t vanish to page zillion by tomorrow (I’m a cuz from across the pond, don’t you know). Just in case anyone thought I was a habitual driver-by. Just don’t get to a computer much, but I have just seen BfC so I’ll be back… Embra ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894/40 "2003-05-13T17:20:17Z")
I don’t think this is a hijack **DaveX, Embra** , it’s just to clarify a point I guess. Since BfC has come out there have been the usual run of Gun Control debates in GD. What’s been different about them is that a number of relatively new posters contributed to those threads specifically citing what they perceived to be true as portrayed by Mr. Moore in his movie, including “deliberately staging a rally after Columbine and the shooting in Flint.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bowling-for-columbine-fact-or-fiction/174894.md?page=3)