# Boy in Police hugging photo dead :( **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 29, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429 "2018-03-29T19:37:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/41 "2018-04-03T21:59:09Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > My guess is murder-suicide. Everyone’s seat belt was unbuckled. I’m sure that wasn’t normally the case. No skid marks. > > StG Here’s the thing. THAT many kids. Not babies in car seats. Young adults, many of them. And yet not one of the seat belts were fastened? I find that mighty curious. Were they sabotaged? Were all of the children forced to unbuckle- and how the hell do you force kids of that age to unbuckle on a fast dangerous road? This really smells bad. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/42 "2018-04-03T22:33:55Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Here’s the thing. > > THAT many kids. Not babies in car seats. Young adults, many of them. And yet not one of the seat belts were fastened? I find that mighty curious. Were they sabotaged? Were all of the children forced to unbuckle- and how the hell do you force kids of that age to unbuckle on a fast dangerous road? > > This really smells bad. I could see them all unbuckled if they were making a rest stop in the turnout, and were having snacks and enjoying the view. What happened next is anyone’s guess. Maybe the car was still in gear and idling and driver floored it, either knowingly or hopefully unknowingly (perhaps reached for something and foot slipped-off the brake and onto the gas). We’ll probably never know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/43 "2018-04-03T22:42:51Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > I don’t know if the social workers weren’t able to call the police given the information that they had, or if they decided not to, but if it’s the former, the law should be changed. No one should be able to decline a child welfare check. Wouldn’t this just reduce the ability of CPS to do welfare checks? If every child welfare check has the effect of a search warrant, then they won’t be able to conduct them except in circumstances that justify a search warrant. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/44 "2018-04-04T03:42:42Z")
They could continue to do things exactly as they’re doing them now, and if they encounter a situation where a child is reported to be in danger, and the parents refuse to let them talk to the child, they can pass the information on to the police, who can show up and ask to see the kids themselves, or seek an emergency court order, if necessary. The police already have the right to remove children in imminent danger without a court order, which is why it might not always be come to that. I don’t think CPS should always take such drastic measures, but in this situation where one child reported being starved, and another didn’t feel safe at home, the case should’ve been escalated that day. ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/45 "2018-04-04T05:10:27Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Here’s the thing. > > THAT many kids. Not babies in car seats. Young adults, many of them. And yet not one of the seat belts were fastened? I find that mighty curious. Were they sabotaged? Were all of the children forced to unbuckle- and how the hell do you force kids of that age to unbuckle on a fast dangerous road? > > This really smells bad. That many kids is why I find it plausible that they weren’t wearing seatbelts. I would guess that a large family as such would be more likely to not wear seatbelts in order to fit more people in and “don’t worry, we’ll drive safely!”. This car model can seat 6-9, but nothing has been said on this specific car. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/46 "2018-04-04T23:40:33Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > From when I first heard the story, I must confess, this was the only thing that made any sense to me. I mean, I’ll wait it out to hear the rest, but I’m definitely biased towards expecting this outcome. Looks like what many of us feared/assumed is [looking to be more likely](https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/04/us/hart-family-search/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/47 "2018-04-05T05:06:26Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/48 "2018-04-05T19:23:24Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > No one should be able to decline a child welfare check. Officer: “I’m here for a child welfare check, let me in now!” Citizen: “But I don’t even have a child…” Officer: “Sorry, sir, but no one can refuse a child welfare check!” I blame that pesky 4th amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/49 "2018-04-05T19:37:59Z")
Right. That’s exactly what should happen. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/50 "2018-04-05T21:56:19Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > This isn’t true. A nineteen year old and two fourteen year olds are confirmed dead. The sixteen, fifteen and twelve year old are missing. The two missing teens aren’t much older than the teens whose bodies have been located. > > I don’t understand how this happened. People are allowed to avoid CPS by refusing to answer the door? Why didn’t the police get involved and force them to cooperate? > [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > I don’t know if the social workers weren’t able to call the police given the information that they had, or if they decided not to, but if it’s the former, the law should be changed. No one should be able to decline a child welfare check. William Blackstone is rolling in his grave. Not to mention all the Founding Fathers. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/51 "2018-04-05T22:47:03Z")
I still think the police should be able to make sure a kid is okay after they’ve reported being starved, despite the effect that might have on people who’ve been dead for three hundred years. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/52 "2018-04-08T00:30:57Z")
They’ve (most likely) discovered another one of the kids’ bodies. > **[Body found in ocean near site of Hart family crash | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/07/us/hart-family-search-body-found/index.html)** > > Authorities recovered a body near the Northern California site where an SUV plunged off a cliff last month, killing at least five members of a family and leaving three siblings missing. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/53 "2018-04-08T03:28:32Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > They’ve (most likely) discovered another one of the kids’ bodies. > > [https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/07/us/hart-family-search-body-found/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/07/us/hart-family-search-body-found/index.html) Either the remains of the other two missing kids will be found or not. The vehicle was at the bottom of that cliff for an unknown amount of time before being discovered. How many tide cycles passed? Ocean tides rise and fall a significant amount, the Pacific is not a big lake. It is hard for people who do not live near a beach to realize just how much the level of the water changes twice a day. They can’t release much info on the body found yet, but they have said that it is of a black female. If her identity is confirmed as one of the missing I think we can call off hope that the 3 missing kids were dropped off somewhere and are still alive. The ocean has them. God rest their souls. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/54 "2018-04-08T13:36:13Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Either the remains of the other two missing kids will be found or not. Gosh. > [@](#): > > It is hard for people who do not live near a beach to realize just how much the level of the water changes twice a day. I don’t live near a beach, but I’ve been to one often enough to notice that the level of the water changes four times a day. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/55 "2018-04-14T16:41:56Z")
Looks like the driver was legally drunk at the time: [link](https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/13/us/hart-family-crash-alcohol/index.html). They also found diphenhydramine (Benadryl) in three other members of the family, but it’s a really common OTC and they didn’t say whether it would have been enough to knock anyone out. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/56 "2018-04-14T17:28:13Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > I still think the police should be able to make sure a kid is okay after they’ve reported being starved, despite the effect that might have on people who’ve been dead for three hundred years. The 4th amendment is still alive and kicking. I know that around here our version of CPS has more latitude than police when it comes to children. If we find evidence that a child should be removed from a home we call them we don’t remove anyone. Of course if there is evidence of criminal activity we pursue that. CPS (called DCPP here) can’t force themselves into a house any more than we can. They can go to a judge and get a court order to do so and then the police will assist. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/57 "2018-04-14T18:59:04Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Gosh. > I don’t live near a beach, but I’ve been to one often enough to notice that the level of the water changes four times a day. Yeah, changes was the wrong way to say it. There are two tidal cycles each 24 hours or so. I was referring to the two high tides that may have washed the missing bodies out to sea. Two tidal cycles, two high tides, followed by two low tides does in fact equal 4 tidal changes per day. Unless we want to talk about this as he continual process that it is, then the tidal levels are constantly changing. I often forget just how pedantic this board can be sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/58 "2018-04-15T00:22:58Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The 4th amendment is still alive and kicking. I know that around here our version of CPS has more latitude than police when it comes to children. If we find evidence that a child should be removed from a home we call them we don’t remove anyone. Of course if there is evidence of criminal activity we pursue that. CPS (called DCPP here) can’t force themselves into a house any more than we can. **They can go to a judge and get a court order to do so** and then the police will assist. Which is exactly what I suggested the police should be able to do to force people to cooperate. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/59 "2018-04-15T03:59:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m just impressed that, in the tragedy, the comments section is full of people hating on the family because the parents were lesbian women. It’s Fox News, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429/60 "2018-07-13T15:15:06Z")
Bumping this thread to share a long and depressing [article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/hart-family-abuse-interstate-adoption/?utm_term=.37f14050f040) just published about the family. To start with, it sounds as though Devonte and his siblings may have been adopted away from their birth family too precipitously. The adoption agency sounds like a shoestring operation, and it seems clear that no psychological screening was done on the prospective parents. After the adoptions, there were a long string of indications that one of the mothers was deeply toxic and cruel. Most of the children were significantly underweight. There were repeated calls by neighbors of children seeking out food, and on at least one occasion one child (a 16-year-old who looked like she was 7), cowered in a neighbor’s house while expressly claiming abuse. Nothing ever rose to the level of agency action, apparently. The family moved from Minnesota to Oregon and then to Washington, and the children were home-schooled, so the opportunities for oversight may have been limited. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-in-police-hugging-photo-dead/811429.md?page=4)