# Boy Scouts losing their Church sponsors. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 1, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903 "2013-06-01T23:38:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/41 "2013-06-04T05:07:29Z")
In case that wasn’t clear, my response was not to any poster, but to people in general. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/42 "2013-06-04T06:18:45Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > Know what the BSA (in practice) has always said? “Scouts? No problem, of course.” Too bad they couldn’t have said it out loud, and then we wouldn’t be in this situation, would we? Edit: You seem sincere and probably deserve better than a one-liner. My point here is that “oh, we’ll just look the other way; even though the official policy says one thing, everybody _knows_ that the Scouts will just look the other way when it comes to actual gay kids” is not an acceptable substitute for an actual policy of inclusion. Gay kids – and trust me, lots of kids know they’re gay _well_ before the age they’re done with Scouts – should not have to feel that they are accepted only so long as someone looks the other way. “In practice” is no substitute for “in the bylaws” and frankly, “oh, but in practice it’s fine, so we don’t need to change any of the actual rules” is frequently used as an excuse by people who don’t want to change bigoted rules or laws. If you want to pick someone to blame for ruining things for everyone, your target is none other than the BSA. “But in practice we have no problem with any kids!” or “you’re making this political!” or “ugh, churches!” are not acceptable substitutes for the only thing that ever should have been said in response to this issue: “Gay kids? Of course they’re welcome.” ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/43 "2013-06-04T06:26:00Z")
One last thing: My daughter is a Girl Scout. You know why you haven’t seen a similar hailstorm of controversy about the Girl Scouts? Because they said, “Gay kids? No problem.” They’re cool with atheists, too. Not a big deal. Nor should it be. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/44 "2013-06-05T01:35:17Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > Were you a Boy Scout that witnessed discrimination? We were a town’s groups that were kicked out for responding to the BSA’s explicit statement 12 years ago that gays were not allowed with the acknowledgement that our village had a law that prohibitied us from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation and if we were aware of a circumstance we would _follow the law_. We were supposed to be an example made. Does that count? ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/45 "2013-06-05T03:53:37Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > One last thing: My daughter is a Girl Scout. You know why you haven’t seen a similar hailstorm of controversy about the Girl Scouts? Because they said, “Gay kids? No problem.” They’re cool with atheists, too. Not a big deal. Nor should it be. I’m sure there are some in the upper levels of the BSA that are anti-gay, which can probably said of many organizations. I’d think that most people in the BSA are tolerant, but don’t want any sort of sexuality introduced into their bylaws because sexuality is not an issue that needs to be highlighted in the organization. They don’t want any stigmas regarding pedophilia to even enter one’s mind when thinking of scouting. The church has a past in regards to such issues, and they have a black eye because of it. Yet, even in an act of acceptance, the church deems it necessary to black ball the scouts. Any position they take, (no gays, all gays welcome, we don’t care) has negative consequences. They chose the right path, and get hundreds of scouts abandoned by their sponsor entities. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t. > [@DSeid](#): > > We were a town’s groups that were kicked out for responding to the BSA’s explicit statement 12 years ago that gays were not allowed with the acknowledgement that our village had a law that prohibitied us from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation and if we were aware of a circumstance we would _follow the law_. > > We were supposed to be an example made. > > Does that count? I can’t decipher this. Please rephrase. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/46 "2013-06-05T04:20:14Z")
He belonged to a scout troop that was kicked out of the BSA when the BSA told them to explicitly exclude homosexuals and they responded that a local ordinance prevented that sort of discrimination. > [@](#): > > Any position they take, (no gays, all gays welcome, we don’t care) has negative consequences. They chose the right path, and get hundreds of scouts abandoned by their sponsor entities. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t. Now, I was only ever a cub scout so I quite possibly missed the “sell your morals to satisfy bigots” section of the handbook but as I recall, doing what’s right even if you lose friends because of it was a pretty important lesson for us to learn. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/47 "2013-06-05T04:42:04Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > I’d think that most people in the BSA are tolerant, but don’t want any sort of sexuality introduced into their bylaws because sexuality is not an issue that needs to be highlighted in the organization. “No gays” is already some sort of sexuality in their bylaws, if you want to think of it that way. If most people in the BSA are tolerant, then it should be no problem to make a simple, official statement saying exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/48 "2013-06-05T04:59:04Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > “No gays” is already some sort of sexuality in their bylaws, if you want to think of it that way. > > If most people in the BSA are tolerant, then it should be no problem to make a simple, official statement saying exactly that. “Most people” do not a controlling body make. Let’s also not forget the thrust of this thread which is the hundreds if not thousands of churches that are deciding to rescind support for these kids/troops based on their opinions on what people do in their bedrooms at night. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/49 "2013-06-05T07:20:45Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > “Most people” do not a controlling body make. > > Let’s also not forget the thrust of this thread which is the hundreds if not thousands of churches that are deciding to rescind support for these kids/troops based on their opinions on what people do in their bedrooms at night. I agree with these statements. Where we disagree (I think) is that you feel that this is a non-issue that never should have been brought up in the first place. Except that since BSA has an ongoing policy of not allowing gay Scouts or Scoutmasters, they’re really the ones who “brought it up.” Just because everyone tiptoes around and tries to ignore a discriminatory policy does not make it go away or not exist or not a problem. The proper thing to do is to acknowledge that it was a mistaken policy and change it. Again, Girl Scouts is doing absolutely fine with their policy of inclusion. Sure, they’ve had a little bit of flak from religious groups, but nothing major, and besides which, as **Inner Stickler** already pointed out, you don’t cave in on a moral issue just because a lot of people might otherwise complain. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/50 "2013-06-06T03:12:01Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I agree with these statements. Where we disagree (I think) is that you feel that this is a non-issue that never should have been brought up in the first place. Except that since BSA has an ongoing policy of not allowing gay Scouts or Scoutmasters, they’re really the ones who “brought it up.” Just because everyone tiptoes around and tries to ignore a discriminatory policy does not make it go away or not exist or not a problem. The proper thing to do is to acknowledge that it was a mistaken policy and change it. > > Again, Girl Scouts is doing absolutely fine with their policy of inclusion. Sure, they’ve had a little bit of flak from religious groups, but nothing major, and besides which, as **Inner Stickler** already pointed out, you don’t cave in on a moral issue just because a lot of people might otherwise complain. I think it should be a non-issue in the same way that most company policies are, nothing anti-gay, nothing specifically pro-gay. Boys are boys regardless of their sexual proclivities. I’m only guessing that the notion of not having gay scout leaders was an effort to avoid any potential fears people might have about potential predatory issues. Nobody wants sex to have anything to do with scouting which I agree with totally. Can a gay scout leader lead a troop of boys without there being any issues? I’m sure they can, but if I had a girl in girl scouts, there’s no way I’d want an adult male to be sleeping in tents with her. I’m pretty confident that whatever the anti-gay policy was or is, was not in the bylaws during Baden Powell’s reign. I’m curious as to when and why that policy was enacted. Does anyone have the specific language used, and maybe when it was enacted? I agree that now, it should be a rescinded policy. Only time will tell what actual impact the Baptist boycott will have, but there will be without question hundreds of well intentioned kids who are going to miss out on a really great life experience as a result of this. To reiterate: I think it’s really sad that sexual issue have found their way into such a noble (in theory) organization in the first place. There should never have been any policy excluding gay scouts. The ban on leaders however gets a bit more sticky depending on your POV. If teachers, priests, bus drivers, coaches and all other manner of people we trust our kids with have been caught and admitted to sexual intentions with our kids, how safe does it seem to send my son to go camping in the woods with a 40 year old guy that admittedly likes boys/men? I’m not insinuating that all gay men are pedos or rapists by any means, but parents have to be extremely cautious about who they let take their kids into the woods unsupervised for a weekend. If that person is an adult that is sexually attracted to the same type of person they are supervising, there is a problem. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/51 "2013-06-06T03:21:44Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Now, I was only ever a cub scout so I quite possibly missed the “sell your morals to satisfy bigots” section of the handbook but as I recall, doing what’s right even if you lose friends because of it was a pretty important lesson for us to learn. Where are you getting this? The BSA “sold their morals”? I’d love a cite for this, not for argument’s sake, but to enlighten us all. The entire point of the OP was that they _are_ “losing friends because of it”. They are trying to do the right thing, and are being boycotted by Baptist churches by the hundreds. How did you miss that? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/52 "2013-06-06T05:19:04Z")
[QUOTE=dnooman] I’m not insinuating that all gay men are pedos or rapists by any means, [/QUOTE] But you just did, in the line right before this one: [QUOTE=dnooman] how safe does it seem to send my son to go camping in the woods with a 40 year old guy that admittedly likes boys/men? [/QUOTE] You are assuming that a gay man likes boys and men alike. That is simply not the case, but you are perpetuating it in your argument. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/53 "2013-06-06T06:48:40Z")
The sooner the church gets out of American scouting the better. People will bang on about money etc but really we have vibrant scouting movements all over the world that don’t operate charter type arrangements. In Australia the majority are funded by the scouts themselves, local Rotary, Masons, Lions, Police, sponsorship, local businessmen etc and often get given land by councils to build scout halls on. Everyone involved except for a few head office types are volunteers. Religion has no place in Scouting, spirituality does. Spoken as a person who has spent over 30 years in Scouting as a cub, scout, venturer, rover, cub & scout leader, parent of four scouts, son of a district commissioner etc etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/54 "2013-06-06T12:18:25Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So no atheists? (Another point of controversy for them, although not nearly as much publicity.) I was kicked out for being an atheist in the mid-80s. That was a troop-level decision AFAIK, not a national policy or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/55 "2013-06-06T13:18:13Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > I’m not insinuating that all gay men are pedos or rapists by any means, but parents have to be extremely cautious about who they let take their kids into the woods unsupervised for a weekend. If that person is an adult that is sexually attracted to the same type of person they are supervising, there is a problem. Would you feel worried about a straight female leader camping with the boys? I mean, she ‘likes boys/men’, right? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/56 "2013-06-06T13:23:49Z")
Yes I would worry about a female scout leader taking boys camping. It seems like every couple months theres a female teacher busted for improper conduct with a student. Teaches are closely supervised at schools and it still happens. I can remember hiking a couple hours and setting up camp in Boy Scouts. There was no one around for miles except our small troop and the Scout Master. Usually there would be another adult but it depended on his work schedule. Theres a lot of trust given to scoutmasters. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/57 "2013-06-06T13:29:52Z")
If “liking boys/men” was the reason why they won’t let gay people be leaders, then lesbians would be allowed. [Yet they aren’t.](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57422643/lesbian-scout-leader-ousted-parents-upset/) ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/58 "2013-06-06T14:34:12Z")
> [@Ann\_Onimous](#): > > I’m hoping that our church will continue sponsoring, but I’m afraid they won’t. Our church is extremely conservative to the point where women aren’t allowed to lead in prayer. I fear this could end badly for a lot of Scout troops. A woman with a functional ethical compass might consider stopping her support of a church with misogynistic rules and leadership. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/59 "2013-06-06T14:36:32Z")
I’m late to the thread, I know. My Council had the Quarterly Council Commissioner’s meeting, where all the unit commissioners in the council (well, all the ones that show up) get an update about what’s going on nationally and council wide. It was a 2 hour meeting, and maybe 10 minutes were spent on the membership policy change. Which is appropriate, because this doesn’t really change anything about the operations of scouting, just whether or not a 16 year old can be open about their orientation. Our council commissioner made two points: 1. You’ll hear in the news about Charter Orgs that dropped scouting over allowing gay youth. You don’t hear about the organizations that are keeping scouting,or the ones that called him personally to say “We support scouting even if we don’t have a unit right now. If there’s a unit nearby that is going to lose a sponsor over this, we’ve got room for them” 2. Two days before “the vote”, he had dinner with the institutional head (i.e. the pastor) of a local church that said “if you guys let gays in we will drop the troop we charter the next day”. It’s been two weeks and they still have a troop in good standing. Sure, there will be changes. Some charter orgs will leave, some will join. Some parents will leave, some will stay. Some youth will leave, some will stay. The idea that the BSA is going to lose half it’s membership in a year is ludicrous. The drop in membership will probably be about the same that it’s been for the past decade or two. That’s a trend scouting needs to reverse, but I don’t think allowing gay youth is going to accelerate it, personal anecdotes and blowhards on the internet aside. (I don’t mean anyone in this thread when I say blowhards; I mean the not-very-scout-like persons on facebook and national blogs and whatnot). ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903/60 "2013-06-06T16:00:59Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > Where are you getting this? The BSA “sold their morals”? I’d love a cite for this, not for argument’s sake, but to enlighten us all. > > The entire point of the OP was that they _are_ “losing friends because of it”. They are trying to do the right thing, and are being boycotted by Baptist churches by the hundreds. How did you miss that? I would consider capitulating to homophobic religious institutions in order to maintain a larger member body a rejection of the tenets of the Boy Scout philosophy. I didn’t say that they are but the tenor of your posts in this thread says to me that you’d have preferred the gay troop members and leaders had stayed in the closet with the idea that such an action would have suitably satisfied everyone’s needs. In my eyes, that’s capitulation to bigoted religious leaders. Remember, it’s not a matter of people announcing that they’re gay at a meeting. It’s going out to dinner with their boyfriend and running into the parents of one of the scout kids. It’s owning a house with their partner and living together. It’s getting married to their partner. These are the sorts of things that people consider ‘flaunting homosexuality’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-scouts-losing-their-church-sponsors/659903.md?page=4)