Boy Scouts USA to allow girls - Girl Scouts upset

For Girl Scouts, parents seem less interested in sending their daughters away to sleep away camp at the age where Girl Scout camping becomes a habit. The girls who are still camping as middle and high schoolers are the ones that started camping in second and third grade. Many of a council’s properties are far enough out to not be practical for day camp - and those are the ones that have been sold off, while the ones in our councils suburbs - within an hour - stay. I know a lot of parents who didn’t think that their girls were ready for a week - or even three days - away from home where they couldn’t come pick them up if they had a slight problem - until it was far too late to establish a camp habit. Its part of the helicopter/hands on parenting style that is prevalent in the middle class.

Of my seven girls who had me as a leader, my daughter was the only one who really enjoyed camp. The girls often don’t like the bugs and the dirt. I had one girl who was horse mad until she spent a week at a girl scout horse camp - where they make you shovel poop. That cured her of her of any desire to have anything to do with a horse. (My daughter, with minimal interest in horses, went swimming with the horses last year as part of her Counseler in Training experience - she also rides really well).

That not liking dirt isn’t unique to girls, my son did one week at a Y camp, enjoyed it, but never wanted to go back. Dirt, lack of air conditioning, and - probably most importantly - NO XBOX - made him think staying home is a better plan. I thought when he got off the bus he might go back, but by the next summer, he had other ideas.

And sleep away camp - through Girl Scouts or the Y or Boy Scouts - is still sort of expensive - it isn’t that much compared to a lot of kid activities, but families only have so much money for kid activities - and if that money is going to dance or football or hockey, it isn’t there for camp. Girl Scout camp, because of that cookie money, can be fairly cheap (I sent my daughter off for three weeks last year for $400, but she was also a junior counselor, so she was “working” and I was paying for the privilege). (With Boy Scouts the boys get much of their money from fundraising in individual accounts which pays for camp…with Girl Scouts, council gets the majority of money from cookies - the primary but not only fundraising activity - which means you can send girls to camp for $400 for three weeks - but the girls who don’t go to camp don’t get the benefit).

Because camping is a central activity for BSA and a optional activity for GSA, BSA is more likely to have family camps and troop camps which ease you into camping - eventually you like camping, not hanging out with your mom/dad/friends in the woods. My girls never wanted to spend their hard earned cookie money camping (we did two weekends because I pushed it - and subsidized it out of my pocket and not cookie money), so a lot of girls don’t have the support of people they know when they show up to camp. My girls spent their cookie money on garden supplies for a memory loss home - we planted flowers, bought mulch - they never did Build A Bear instead of camping - it was a very responsible choice, just not one that took them camping. . (They did spend cookie money bowling - and managed to save enough that we went to Savannah Georgia to see the Juliet Gordon Low house when they were headed to high school and I was going to loose them. The rest of the cookie money went to the American Cancer Society).

The range of camps available has also expanded, and many of them offer “more” to type A parents then the outdoorsy traditional Scout/Y camp. Robotics camp, law camp, theatre camp, hockey camp, soccer camp, band camp…those are the things that are going to develop the skills your kid needs to land a scholarship - Eagle Scout or Gold Award is nice - but that can be done without a week at camp. Learning to pitch from a college coach in middle school is seen as more valuable. And there is always Bible camp for those so inclined.

I’ll also note that both Scouting organizations have fundraising issues…People really don’t like to buy overpriced cookies or Christmas wreaths so middle class boys can spend time in the woods and middle class girls can go to Build a Bear. And kids are expected to do so much fundraising - for school, for church, for sports - that the well is dried out on a lot of that. Corporations aren’t thrilled about grants to middle class kids so they can go learn archery or canoeing - they’d rather see disadvantaged kids get into the woods - and other organizations are having better success getting disadvantaged kids into the woods than Scouts - because they can use the grant dollars to target specifically those kids without a commitment to the organization (Wilderness Inquiry in the Twin Cities does a lot of that).

As I said earlier, I really enjoyed my time in The Boy Scouts. But a lot of that had to do with the camping aspect. Had that not been a regular part of the activities, I doubt I would have stayed in. Camping is something I enjoyed as a scout, and continued to do, fairly regularly, throughout my life.

This contradicts everything the season threads on Dope has led me to believe about these GS cookies…
I believe the word “inhale” was used more than once.

Thanks for sticking with Boy Scouts despite your differences. When it gets down to it, no group is perfect.

Well ok your right, they cannot exclude boy based on religion. BUT, they can enforce rules. For example a Jewish group may only eat kosher. A Mennonite group might have rules against swearing.

HERE is there pamphlet on the issue. It shows many religious emblems and mentions many others including Sikh, Unitarian, Buddhist, and more I’ve never even heard of.

The pamphlet doesn’t say anything about enforcing religious rules.

One problem around here in the Kansas City area was many GS camps were not so far out so as the city limits grew, it surrounded them and 1. the land became VERY valuable and 2. when it became within a city limits they had to upgrade facilities to meet more stringent codes. For example no more outdoor latrines. So hence, they were sold off.

Now why the heck they don’t use the money to buy another camp further out is beyond me! But then, they would rather the money go into the fund for salaries and benefits. Checkout this article and the reasons they sold off some popular GS camps. In that article" "According to the lawsuit filed by Friends of Eagle Island, GSHONJ CEO Susan Brooks defended the sale by saying, “I have pensions to pay.”

Please read the rest of the article.

Here in Kansas City the remaining GS camps are very popular and are basically sold out so they often rent out the BS camps.

This is incorrect. Girls earn “cookie dough” which is money that can be spent on pretty much anything girl scout related including camps and trips. This is on top of any other money their troop earns.

As for the rest I’m going to have to assume that it must vary greatly from council to council. In our area the troop receives back almost $1 per box. My daughter’s troop actually keeps track of the boxes each girl sells and sets up an account for each girl with money earned from their sales that they can spend on troop trips. Some of the trips they’ve spent that money on are camping trips including one to the Appalachians and one to the Outer Banks of NC to see the wild horses. They’ve also spent it on a trip to NYC to see the museums and a musical because that’s what the girls voted to do.

This is also incorrect. They do earn badges but that’s not all they earn. In addition to the “cookie dough” mentioned above they earn all sorts of swag. Some of it is silly stuff like stuffed animals but my daughter has also earned things like outdoor wear, a tent we use for family camping, an eno hammock, and a trip to the National Whitewater Center where she went rafting, and a trip to a high ropes course.

It’s sad that in many areas the Girl Scouts are selling their camps. Luckily in the two states we lived in while my daughter was in scouts they not only didn’t sell any but purchased a new camp. I guess we were lucky.

It seems like in general we had a much better scouting experience that many other dopers. I wish everyone had the opportunities my daughter had in troops which were run as well.

Did they need the camps? Were the camps at capacity? We had similar issues and articles up here - the camps weren’t at capacity, they needed far fewer of them. So they sold one that was way out, and one that was close in that could be developed. The one they sold close in that could be developed a lot of people were up in arms about - it was their childhood memories, and it makes sense. But it didn’t offer what the other camp locations in this area could offer (it was a prairie camp - other camp locations have woods and prairie and lakeshore - this had just prairie and a swimming pool)

And yes, they have to pay pensions. If they contracted to pay pensions, those are an obligation. They might have to shut down the program to do it, but you can’t stiff someone out of their pension. Not ethically. When Scouting was bigger, there was more money coming in - and the time was more innocent as well - less insurance costs, less expectations on what the program would provide - so a bigger staff with better benefits. When the economics change, you have to change.

But it doesn’t. You’re assuming that if a girl is more interested in camping, for instance, she can simply join a troop that’s interested in camping. That may be possible in some urban areas, but in the places I’ve lived, the troops are too far apart geographically to make that practical–and that’s assuming all the troops in the area aren’t the ones focused on “social and craft-oriented.” GSA doesn’t determine what troops focus on, the individual troop leaders do. GSA does not make a “myriad of incredible opportunities available to girls.” It’s the luck of the draw.

Also, I believe girls should be introduced to a variety of experiences through the Scouts. I can’t imagine a Boy Scout troop focusing solely on “social and craft-oriented” projects just because the troop leader likes those things.

The issue is the leaders. If your daughter is interested in camping, its sort of up to you if there isn’t another leader who wants to camp to make it happen. Or, if you are close enough, you can use council resources - weekend camps that are just girls or girls and a parent - not troop camps. My coleader was CPAP dependent, so camping involved electricity - and none of the other parents were interested in taking the girls camping. My daughter found that limiting, so joined programs outside of the troop through Scouts where she had more rustic experiences.

Girl Scout leaders are volunteers, and yeah, it would be great if more moms (the majority are mothers of the girls - there are exceptions) would step up to provide a wider variety of experiences. But you can’t make leaders take the girls camping - or do social action projects - or do crafty things - its hard enough to get the leaders to volunteer to share their own interests. It used to drive me nuts when the girl’s mothers would say “you should…” and then I’d say “great, why don’t you pull that together” and … crickets…or “I don’t have time,” “that’s why I’m not the leader.”

Our council has a bunch of women whose girls are all adults now (I may join them soon) who do a three day tent camp with a few hundred middle school girls - giving the girls a chance to cook outside and pitch a tent. The high school girls are the leaders in this exercise. But they, too, are volunteers who have stepped in to fill a gap that a lot of troops don’t provide.

I was a Brownie and that was fun, but then when I got to GS age, I didn’t wanna just sell cookies, so I dropped out. Don’t get me wrong; I love the cookies. But I wanted to go camping and hiking and ended up doing a lot of that with my dad and can totally hold my own with an Eagle Scout. :: cool ::

Years later, in high school, I was an Explorer – the post was at our city newspaper, one of the places where I learned to be a little Lois Lane. I was very proud of my “you are a member of BSA” membership card as a girl.

If the GS were still doing camping and hiking/survival sorts of activities like they did a long time ago, then I’d say there’s no need for a co-ed scouting group. From this thread, I’ve learned that the GS have devolved into nothing more than a cookie empire. In that case, I think both BSA and GSA should be disbanded and just have “Scouts.” Why does it have to be gendered?

My daughter’s GS troop hikes and camps out, and also does volunteerism/charity stuff as well as government/civics stuff. My takeaway from this thread is, GS troops sound like they vary a ton from place to place.

And I’m sure that has a lot to do with the troop leaders and what their interests are and their individual effort levels as well.

I remember hearing a show on NPR many years ago, where some GSA rep was saying they were looking for young-ish, single, professional women to recruit as troop leaders. They wanted single women because presumably, single women have more time to devote to that sort of thing. I considered volunteering for a while and then remembered that I don’t really like kids that much and I’d end up committing myself and then hating it and counting the days until the damn cookie sale was over.

At this point, if I had children, it sounds like special-interest private/day camps would be the way to go.

And that’s my point. I’ve never heard of a boy having to poke around for a Boy Scout troop or some other organization to find leaders who meet his interests, and they’re all volunteers, too. Don’t get me wrong: I appreciate GS leaders for volunteering. I’m simply saying girls shouldn’t have to shop around, since boys don’t. And yes, I took my daughter camping, but camping with the family is far different than camping out with a group, and not everyone has access to alternative groups. I assume when they do, they leave, and then the Scouts have lower numbers. Whatever the BSA rationale is for allowing girls to join, it’s the fact girls are asking to do so that should concern GSA: what needs are not being met that the BSA are meeting, and how can those needs be addressed?

Years ago I was a Girl Scout - it was the 1970s. I was a Brownie and a Junior - and done by middle school (we moved a lot)

We did a troop camping experience and day camp. The troop camp was a big camping experience in a big troop house. Day camp was smores and a few hikes, but mostly more crafty stuff (God’s Eye’s anyone?). Most of our time was doing crafty stuff and singing camp songs and doing skits. During troop meetings we worked on badges that had a lot of variety - including badges on sewing and first aid (both still part of the GS program). I vividly remember getting an arts badge - we did watercolor paintings. And one for cooking.

I didn’t learn to canoe or archery. Our hikes weren’t exactly great outdoor experiences. I don’t remember learning how to build a fire.

I suspect it varied a lot years and years ago and for those that remember a hiking camping GS experience, they were in a hiking camping troop.

My nephews both just got done with Boy Scouts (4th and 5th grade or there abouts). Both hated the camping part. They liked the Pinewood Derby. They were Scouts for the reason a lot of kids are Scouts in my experience (both Boy and Girl Scouts) - because in Kindergarten and First Grade everyone joins Scouts - and by third and forth grade they start leaving for activities that are more focused - traveling sports teams, competitive dance, lego and robotics teams.

I don’t think its something that the organizations themselves can address - I think its cultural. Your boys are worth more than your girls. Spending time with your boys in this fashion is expected, spending time with your girls isn’t. In particular, with the BSA you get Dads as well as Den Mothers - with Girl Scouts there are almost no Dads involved.

Which is one of the ways that BSA allowing girls in is wonderful - girls will have the advantage of that. But I wouldn’t be shocked if the BSA discovers that with the girls, they get the volunteer issue of parents who are less involved in Scouting.

All 3 of my sisters were Girl Scouts back in the 60s-70s. I was a Cub-Boy Scout at the same time. Both of my daughters were Girl Scouts (Daisies/Brownies, up to middle school), and my son made Eagle.

I was talking to my sister about this yesterday. She said the main thing she and my other sisters liked was going on hikes and camping, where they could build fires and goof around in the woods with relatively light adult supervision. I enjoyed the camping as well, but also had a lot of fun doing activities with scouts. And learned a bunch of stuff I still know about basic first aid, knots, etc.

When my daughters were in scouts, there was no camping. The activities were more like homework/home economics. My daughters were not interested and dropped out. My son’s troop camped out every month, through the Chicago winters. He loved it.

So my data points suggested that Girl Scouts may have changed in the past decades, with a decreased emphasis on outdoors-type activities. But I understand different troops can have different foci.

I’m not a huge fan of BSA, due to the gay/god stuff. But it does some things well for which there is no good substitute.

I haven’t studied up on the proposals, but I see a couple of potential issues. With the younger kids - under age 11 - I think there is less of an issue, other than that many girls seem to mature more quickly. I think there is SOME benefit in allowing boys and girls to act as they want to within their own gender - without adding on the layers of how coed affects things. Yeah, I know that doesn’t accommodate GLBTQ, etc.

But I see more problems with boy scouts - which starts at age 11. IME w/ boy scouts, there is a bit of a “Lord of the Flies” dynamic going on, with an overlay of quasi-military discipline/hierarchy. You have 11-year olds interacting closely with 16-18 yr olds. I’ve NEVER seen a group of Scouts in which there wasn’t SOME teasing - some of it pretty brutal. I can’t imagine being a leader supervising a coed group of 11-18 yr olds. Hell, we pushed boundaries prettyfar with it judt guys.

And boys act differently when girls aren’t involved. I think there is a benefit to boys being able to do scouting sorts of activities without heterosexual dynamics being involved.

But, having said that, I don’t have any kids who will be in scouting, so I don’t really care. It would be interesting to see to what extent the “curriculum” changed - if at all - to make it unisex.

So you’re basically saying the reason BSA has fewer issues with adult volunteers is that parents don’t want to “spend time with” their daughters???