# Boy, sure is rape culture around here lately **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 25, 2018, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876 "2018-09-25T10:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/41 "2018-09-25T16:41:50Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > No, the operative question is “are those distasteful and horrible views being presented in a manner designed to deliberately piss people off?” Because that would be trolling. I think this question is always present in every thread, not just the one in question. To that I think thus far (I’m mostly current as of yesterday afternoon) the answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/42 "2018-09-25T17:00:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or perhaps are these views so inherently so distasteful and horrible that they constitute trolling in and of themselves? > > Put it as baldly as possible - is it trolling to say “I don’t believe her”? The problem is not that they are trolls. The problem is that they are sincere. That’s pretty much the definition of rape culture. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/43 "2018-09-25T17:09:47Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > But when women want to ask about that trash, it’s got to be in ATMB, ergo lady like polite, the topic strictly limited to the mods wishes. Not the women’s, the mods wishes. The mod’s wishes in this case is that a thread about the moderation of Kavanaugh threads in elections be allowed to discuss the moderation of Kavanaugh threads in elections. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable request. You aren’t being silenced. If you want to discuss the broader topic of misogyny on the board, feel free to start a new thread about it. Just don’t bury this thread in that much larger topic. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/44 "2018-09-25T17:15:57Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > You aren’t being silenced. If you want to discuss the broader topic of misogyny on the board, feel free to start a new thread about it. [Like that would accomplish anything.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=688043) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/45 "2018-09-25T17:16:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Declaring that the actions she claims are, **as claimed** , no big deal–that they’re just “getting laid”, or she’s at fault so shouldn’t complain, or they’re just what guys do and girls should expect it–is pro-rape, and is outside the bounds of reasonable conversation. That’s a defensible position, although not one with which I agree. Especially not the part about her being at fault. Because I think there is a useful distinction between “it was her fault” and “15 year old girls should not be sneaking off to parties where no adults are present and there is drinking”. And ISTM that the two tend to be conflated. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/46 "2018-09-25T17:18:03Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The problem is not that they are trolls. The problem is that they are sincere. > > That’s pretty much the definition of rape culture. Should saying “I don’t believe her” make the poster who says it subject to Warnings and bans? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/47 "2018-09-25T17:44:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Should saying “I don’t believe her” make the poster who says it subject to Warnings and bans? Nope. A poster who can twist my words into that preztel, on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/48 "2018-09-25T17:52:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Pointing out that an allegation is unsubstantiated, or contradicted by others allegedly present, or is outright bizarre like the Aventati claims, is not rape culture. > [ul][li]Not all claims of sexual assault are lies.[/li][li]Not all claims of sexual assault are true.[/li][li]Many claims of sexual assault can neither be proven nor disproven.[/li][li]Women have a right to be heard.[/li][li]Women do not have a right to be believed automatically or without question.[/li][li]Democrats and liberals are no more or less entitled to the assumption of good faith than Republicans and conservatives.[/ul]If any of the above upsets someone, they can stay out of the thread, or Pit someone. If they can’t do either of those things, too freaking bad. [/li] > Regards, > Shodan This is _not_ what I (or anyone else, for that matter) is complaining about. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/49 "2018-09-25T17:55:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s a defensible position, although not one with which I agree. > > Especially not the part about her being at fault. Because I think there is a useful distinction between “it was her fault” and “15 year old girls should not be sneaking off to parties where no adults are present and there is drinking”. And ISTM that the two tend to be conflated. > > Regards, > Shodan It’s the mod’s call, but I would be happy with a note that said something like: “Please tone things down so that you are not accusing women or girls from being responsible for being the victim of a sexual assault just because they wore the wrong clothes or were in the wrong place. That’s being a jerk and could be considered trolling”. I don’t think the poster in question literally said “it was her fault”, but he came pretty close. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/50 "2018-09-25T18:25:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s the mod’s call, but I would be happy with a note that said something like: “Please tone things down so that you are not accusing women or girls from being responsible for being the victim of a sexual assault just because they wore the wrong clothes or were in the wrong place. That’s being a jerk and could be considered trolling”. I don’t think the poster in question literally said “it was her fault”, but he came pretty close. You are correct that it is the mods’ call. Do you think (I do, in case it’s not clear) that there is any useful distinction between “she was in the wrong place” and misogyny/rape culture? ISTM that a fifteen year old girl at a house party with no adults and where there is drinking is in the wrong place. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/51 "2018-09-25T18:32:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …Obama admitted publicly he used marijuana and cocaine when he was younger. > > If Obama had said he had never used marijuana and cocaine, but we found witnesses who said they had seen him using marijuana and cocaine, then we have good reason to doubt his suitability for serving in public office. > > You admit to telling homophobic jokes in the past. There are probably some people who will hold that against you: that’s unavoidable. But if you lied about it: and if we found out that you lied about it, then I don’t think you should be holding public office either. > > Your argument misses the nuance. That’s fair; I’m not going to defend lying as an adult about something you did when you were younger- that does show the sort of persistent and present character flaw that we should all be concerned about, not whatever it was that they did at 16. And that particular nuance seems to be drifting aimlessly as well. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/52 "2018-09-25T18:52:04Z")
It’s also worth noting that many Dopers are quick to jump to the wrong conclusion when they read things. Take for example my comments about Ford’s peer group and their fake IDs, underage drinking, and partying with boys in homes where the adults were away. The article that mentioned this behavior also noted that the boys were well-known to become sexually aggressive on these occasions. This had become something of a burden the girls had to contend with. I brought all this up by way of indicating that it shouldn’t have come as a shock to Ford that a boy would therefore come on to her this way. I even stated this in so many words, and on more than one occasion. But instead of acknowledging the true meaning of what I said, my comments were either deliberately or reflexively misconstrued to mean that I was blaming Ford for the fact she was allegedly attacked. There is a significant difference between saying that a person shouldn’t logically be surprised to find out drunken guys were coming onto her under such circumstances vs. saying she was responsible for the fact they did. In other words, “shock” and “responsible for” are two completely different things. IMO, there is way too much of this behavior on the board, where something said in one context is alleged to be saying something inflammatory in a different context, with such misconstruing then used to vilify the poster in question, or, on occasion, to advocate for his moderation or banning. The fact is that it’s almost impossible for a poster going against the grain here to get a point across in the way he or she means it, and I believe this should be taken into account when the board’s moderators and administrators are considering what type of speech should be allowed or how the board is to be run. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/53 "2018-09-25T18:54:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I brought all this up by way of indicating that it shouldn’t have come as a shock to Ford that a boy would therefore come on to her this way. Thanks for providing such a clear example of rape culture. Attempted rape is not a “come on”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/54 "2018-09-25T19:07:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s also worth noting that many Dopers are quick to jump to the wrong conclusion when they read things. Yeah, this sort of thing is actually what we’re talking about–this and the other parts where you talk about how it’s no big deal for a dude to do what Kavanaugh is accused of doing, and that women who are traumatized by what Kavanaugh is accused of doing are weak. I’d be all about such posts getting warnings. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/55 "2018-09-25T19:14:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thanks for providing such a clear example of rape culture. Attempted rape is not a “come on”. Note that I said “a” boy, not “that” boy. The meaning was that she shouldn’t have been shocked that guys would be there who would be coming on strong sexually. Your comment is pretty much a perfect example of how comments get twisted around here. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/56 "2018-09-25T19:17:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Note that I said “a” boy, not “that” boy. The meaning was that she shouldn’t have been shocked that guys would be there who would be coming on strong sexually. Your comment is pretty much a perfect example of how comments get twisted around here. But she didn’t complain about a come on. She complained about an attempted rape. You’re the one who called it a come on, which is a prime example of rape culture. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/57 "2018-09-25T19:17:35Z")
**Shodan** , do you understand the difference between what you said we were complaining about and what **Starving Artist** has said both in this thread and others? Because that’s what _actually_ bothers us. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/58 "2018-09-25T19:18:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s also worth noting that many Dopers are quick to jump to the wrong conclusion when they read things. > > Take for example my comments about Ford’s peer group and their fake IDs, underage drinking, and partying with boys in homes where the adults were away. The article that mentioned this behavior also noted that the boys were well-known to become sexually aggressive on these occasions. This had become something of a burden the girls had to contend with. > > I brought all this up by way of indicating that it shouldn’t have come as a shock to Ford that…(rest cut) My layman’s understanding is that the argument you are making is one that is part of “rape culture” as popularly defined. **I’m not saying you should feel like a bad person about that; just recognize what the effects of this argument are, and how it doesn’t help solve the problem, but makes it worse**. I’m going to try a clumsy analogy here to demonstrate how offensive this argument is; maybe it works. First, premises: 1. A few dozen people died in Texas last year because of **Hurricane Harvey** ; many more were injured – physically, financially, emotionally, whatever. 2. There is a tenuous causal relationship between human-caused climate change and the damage caused by hurricanes. By that I mean: there seems to be a plausible, logical, evidence-based argument that human activity has made **some** hurricanes more destructive. (If you want to argue the climate change-\> worse hurricanes point, imagine that I’m talking about the poor city planning choices Houston made that contributed to flooding there, and adjust the rest of the analogy accordingly.) 3. Now, any particular hurricane can’t be demonstrated to have been aggravated in this way. So we don’t know if Harvey was made worse by it or not. 4. A major source of greenhouse gas emissions is the production of meat for human consumption. (Not just cow farts.) Okay, so imagine that _PETA makes the argument that the residents of Houston deserve the damage brought upon them by Harvey, because so many of those residents eat meat_. Thereby… (connect the dots). ## Okay, let’s make that less obnoxious. Let’s say they just **shouldn’t have been surprised** that Harvey was so destructive, because … My analogy’s clumsy, as I said; but I hope you can at least see why **“deserved it”** or even **“should’ve known better”** arguments are regarded as deeply offensive _and unhelpful_ by many people. Not just women or survivors of sexual assault. _ **Not only are they tenuously connected to the specific act of violence – they ignore the larger causes of that act of violence.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/59 "2018-09-25T19:24:10Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > Okay, let’s make that less obnoxious. Let’s say they just **shouldn’t have been surprised** that Harvey was so destructive, because … “So destructive”? No, a hurricane is no big deal. There are winds like that all the time, and how can they live on the coast and not expect a little breeze now and then? They shouldn’t be surprised at a stiff ocean breeze. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/60 "2018-09-25T19:25:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Note that I said “a” boy, not “that” boy. The meaning was that she shouldn’t have been shocked that guys would be there who would be coming on strong sexually. Your comment is pretty much a perfect example of how comments get twisted around here. Yeah, your description of an event where someone was allegedly yanked out of a hallway, thrown onto a bed, jumped onto, and where the attacker then stifled her screams and tried to undress her–your description of this event as “coming on strong sexually” is the sort of talk that IMO deserves a warning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876.md?page=4)