# Boy, sure is rape culture around here lately **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 25, 2018, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876 "2018-09-25T10:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/161 "2018-09-26T16:50:44Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > The whole discussion about whether Ford made good decisions that night, as promulgated by **Shodan** , \*\*octopus \*\*et al, is just an elaborate exercise in evading the question at hand. > > So, to stick with the well-rehearsed analogy, let’s say someone gets drunk, flashes cash and gets beaten up and robbed. Well in that case, the people who assaulted him should be let off scot free at sentencing because, let’s face it, they wouldn’t have been able to beat and rob him if he hadn’t made himself so available. > > No hang on, that’s obvious nonsense. At sentencing, it doesn’t matter how or why the villains found their victim. The many important life lessons the poor sod might take about keeping himself safe are utterly irrelevant to the question at hand. That question being: does the robbers’ decision to rob him merit some kind of punishment? > > So let’s unwind this analogy. The question at hand for these hearings is: should Kavanaugh be a Supreme Court justice? Ford’s accusations raise two sub-questions. Did he do what she accuses him of? And if so, should his decision to attempt to rape a drunk 15 year-old mean that he’s not worthy of being on the Supreme Court? > > Let’s make the assumption for now that the bad things that she says happened did happen. _It doesn’t matter for these hearings how good or bad her decision-making was that night._ Her decision making is not what we’re interested in. What matters is Kavanaugh’s decision making. He was presented with a drunk 15 year-old. _How she got there is immaterial to the matter at hand_. He made a decision about how to proceed. If you want to talk about the quality of people’s decision-making, this is the decision you need to focus on. This decision is the whole point. > > But of course, the whole point of making the conversation about Ford’s decision-making is to take the focus off of Kavanaugh’s. All the conversation about her choices minimises the attention on his. An assault is presented as a near-inevitability, an unfortunate event that just sort of happens to the woman who has crossed the acceptable boundaries of risk. “Can we really blame Kavanaugh, given all the bad decisions Ford had already made”, is the implication. In fact it’s worse - the implication is “given all the bad decisions Ford made, why are we talking about Kavanaugh at all?”. > > That’s rape culture. Minimising men’s agency, accepting a high risk of rape or as just a natural environmental factor beyond anyone’s control, and ignoring considerations of men’s choices in favour of focusing on women’s. Even and especially when the only question that matters is what choices the man made. > > Ford isn’t up for the Supreme Court. Kavanaugh is. Why are we talking about Ford’s judgement? You and czarcasm as well do understand that culpability and wisdom are two separate concepts and some of us can deal with more than once concept at a time in a conversation? Look at the reality around you. You can’t reduce all of it to one variable and think that makes any sense. It’s like the saying can’t add apples and oranges. Those are different things. Hopefully a conversation that had apples and oranges in it where the properties of both were being discussed wouldn’t be that hard to follow. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/162 "2018-09-26T17:03:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I notice you didn’t actually answer the question: If you child got into a car with a stranger and got hurt, AFTERWARD would you get mad at your child and blame them? > > (I am not comparing children to women in this scenario) > > And I don’t think anyone is saying to NOT give suggestions to your children, but do you really think you need to tell women those things? As actual women in this thread have said, they ALREADY know this information. > > The problem, to me, seems to be saying these things AFTER a person is assaulted. What good comes from telling them “See? You shouldn’t have gone to that frat party with a short skirt on! It’s more than 0% your fault you got raped!” > > Highly strange to me to tell someone that. You are conflating different things. You know that anything that can be labeled as so-called victim blaming is irrationally taboo. And you think that admonishing the lack of judgment that increases risk is the same as being morally responsible for another person’s, who has full agency we are assuming, criminal actions. In this “heated” and overly emotional environment it’s almost a trap question. But to answer your question I’m really not sure what I’d say. Depending on the circumstances I may very well note the poor judgement. Look, I’ve been the victim of crimes. Each and every time I ask myself what I could have done a little different to reduce the risk. Not once do I say I deserved to be a victim of that particular crime. These **aren’t** difficult concepts. I tell my kids to choose a good password. Does that make me a hacking apologist? Now obviously, if Ford’s allegations are true, 100% of the blame for the attempted rape is on Kavanaugh. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/163 "2018-09-26T17:08:45Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Fair warning and a heads up. I’m just about done with rape apology. My tolerance for it in an official capacity is at an end from this point forward. Glad to hear this. Does this include the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/164 "2018-09-26T17:10:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Agreed. Why is that crap allowed, over and over again, unmoderated? agreed+1 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/165 "2018-09-26T17:29:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Glad to hear this. Does this include the Pit? I stay in my lane. GD, Elections, and Thread Games (one of these is different than the others). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/166 "2018-09-26T17:32:39Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I stay in my lane. GD, Elections, and Thread Games (one of these is different than the others). Can you give us a hint as to what all the behind-the-scenes moderator discussions are indicating? Are y’all close to any more final/formal guidance or rules change? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/167 "2018-09-26T18:24:05Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I stay in my lane. GD, Elections, and Thread Games (one of these is different than the others). “Elections” is only one word! What do I win? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/168 "2018-09-26T18:24:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You and czarcasm as well do understand that culpability and wisdom are two separate concepts and some of us can deal with more than once concept at a time in a conversation? Look at the reality around you. You can’t reduce all of it to one variable and think that makes any sense. > > It’s like the saying can’t add apples and oranges. Those are different things. Hopefully a conversation that had apples and oranges in it where the properties of both were being discussed wouldn’t be that hard to follow. But that whole discussion is a red herring in the discussion of Kavenough. The only way it is relevant is if you are suggesting that woman that would admit to going to such a party is a woman who is not credible. Are you suggesting that? If you are not, why is it germane to the topic? If it is not germane, it seems like the only reason to bring it up is as part of a standard response to minimize all accounts of sexual assault and perpetuate the narrative that they aren’t a thing most women need to worry about because they only happen to girls who are very unwise. That’s rape culture. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/169 "2018-09-26T18:36:07Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But that whole discussion is a red herring in the discussion of Kavenough. The only way it is relevant is if you are suggesting that woman that would admit to going to such a party is a woman who is not credible. Are you suggesting that? > > If you are not, why is it germane to the topic? If it is not germane, it seems like the only reason to bring it up is as part of a standard response to minimize all accounts of sexual assault and perpetuate the narrative that they aren’t a thing most women need to worry about because they only happen to girls who are very unwise. That’s rape culture. I’m not even a participant in that thread because of the pointless nature. Knowing the truth will be impossible. But, discussion on what is permissible to discuss is actually meaningful. I find it problematic when a subset of language is made by fiat or social pressure to be taboo. Because the next step is to deliberately use that label inaccurately to shut down other discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/170 "2018-09-26T18:39:56Z")
\ Let’s keep the discussion in this thread about the moderation of the post, and not debate the content of the post, please. If you wish to do the latter, please go to Great Debates. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/171 "2018-09-26T19:06:31Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Way to go! Mods to the rescue! Just skip the obnoxious misogynist and focus on what is really important! This thread is about how Kavanaugh / rape issues are being moderated in the Elections forum. I do not moderate the Elections forum, and I also do not even read or participate in that forum. I don’t know enough about how the topic is being discussed in that forum and how those discussions are being moderated to have any sort of useful opinion on the topic. I am one of the ATMB moderators, so my job in this discussion is to keep everyone within the rules of ATMB. Well, mostly in the rules, at least. I’m a bit forgiving of certain behaviors on hot button topics as long as it allows people to get their point across. The topic is expanding a bit to other forums, which I am ok with as long as we stick to basically the original topic of the OP (Kavanaugh and rape culture). It seems to be mostly affecting GD, Elections, and the Pit. I don’t have enough knowledge of what goes on in those forums with this topic to have a useful opinion on how they should be moderated. I moderate GQ, and in that forum, issues with rape culture on the board do not seem to be an issue. If it is an issue, please let me know, because I haven’t seen it. If I do see it in GQ, expect it to be moderated with a fairly heavy hand. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/172 "2018-09-26T19:15:56Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I would highly discourage her from doing so BEFORE she went. If something happened, I wouldn’t blame her. > > \*edited to add: Besides, women get assaulted NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE WEARING. And in every stage of drunkenness. And at every age. Should I warn my daughter never to go on a date, because she might get date-raped? > > Believe me, this goes against a strong system I have of blaming people for doing stupid things. But threads on this board, and reading some links that were provided in other threads, I can see how blaming someone for something like this does no good, and only hurts someone more who is already a victim. I actually agree. What I don’t agree with is the dealing in absolutes that is going on here; this subject is about as far from black and white as it’s possible to get, and saying that something is always, 100% the fault of the assaulter and the victim categorically and absolutely never bears ANY culpability kind of scares me a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![HelenTroy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helentroy/32/86_2.png) [@HelenTroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenTroy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/173 "2018-09-26T19:24:40Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I actually agree. What I don’t agree with is the dealing in absolutes that is going on here; this subject is about as far from black and white as it’s possible to get, and saying that something is always, 100% the fault of the assaulter and the victim categorically and absolutely never bears ANY culpability kind of scares me a little bit. This is a discussion on rape. Please give me a ballpark range of the percentage of blame that could be assigned to the victim. 5%? 20%? Does it correlate to skirt length? Number of sex partners? Time of night she dares leave the home without a chaperone? Please give consideration to your answer and also why the focus on what the victim has done is the very definition of rape culture and why so many of us are disgusted. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/174 "2018-09-26T19:41:18Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > What if **Shodan** , dressed in expensive clothing and wearing a $50,000 wristwatch, drove his Ferrari to a dive bar where he left it parked out front in plain view, went inside and started flashing a wad of cash and buying everyone drinks, got stumbling blind drunk, and took a wrong turn heading for the bathroom and wound up outside in an alley, where some of the bar’s patrons followed and began to beat and rob him and take his wallet, his watch and his car. > > Do you still claim he bears zero responsibility for what happened to him? Yep. Who commited the Crime? The blame falls only on the criminals not the victim. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/175 "2018-09-26T19:44:21Z")
> [@HelenTroy](#): > > Is anyone still naive enough to think he isn’t getting off on this? Topic ban at the BARE MINIMUM. This is gross and I need a Silkwood shower. I reported it, that post was wrong on several levels, you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/176 "2018-09-26T19:44:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And you think that admonishing the lack of judgment that increases risk is the same as being morally responsible for another person’s, who has full agency we are assuming, criminal actions. In this “heated” and overly emotional environment it’s almost a trap question. I think YOU are mixing up two things. One happens before someone is assaulted or raped. And one is AFTER. Before? I’m cool with warning about behavior and being in strange locations alone and such. You can do that all day, everyday and I don’t think anyone would think strangely of you. After? That’s when it becomes something else to think about. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/177 "2018-09-26T20:22:42Z")
> [@HelenTroy](#): > > This is a discussion on rape. Please give me a ballpark range of the percentage of blame that could be assigned to the victim. 5%? 20%? Does it correlate to skirt length? Number of sex partners? Time of night she dares leave the home without a chaperone? Please give consideration to your answer and also why the focus on what the victim has done is the very definition of rape culture and why so many of us are disgusted. 0.0% ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/178 "2018-09-26T20:28:46Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Fair warning and a heads up. I’m just about done with rape apology. My tolerance for it in an official capacity is at an end from this point forward. Might we have some sort of indication as to what rape “apology” consists of, as I am genuinely unaware of anyone taking up for or excusing rape in any way. Further, official sanction of one side of an argument results not in debate or discussion but only in proselytism. How are we supposed to fight ignorance or engage in debate if only one side of an issue can be heard from? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/179 "2018-09-26T20:35:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Might we have some sort of indication as to what rape “apology” consists of, Happy to oblige. > [@Starving Artists thinks attempted rape is not "all that serious"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artists-thinks-attempted-rape-is-not-all-that-serious/821855/18): > > This is all 100% politically motivated. Ford was not harmed. Whatever groping happened, happened over her clothes. There was no skin-on-skin contact and she was able to get away fairly easily. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876/180 "2018-09-26T20:38:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Might we have some sort of indication as to what rape “apology” consists of, as I am genuinely unaware of anyone taking up for or excusing rape in any way. > > Further, official sanction of one side of an argument results not in debate or discussion but only in proselytism. How are we supposed to fight ignorance or engage in debate if only one side of an issue can be heard from? How about, before you post, you consider not whether _you_ would take such an action, but whether you’re happy arguing that men have less self control than dogs? otherwise, n/m [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boy-sure-is-rape-culture-around-here-lately/821876.md?page=10)