# Boycotting Joss Whedon - I think. (Warning: Open Spoilers for Serenity) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 24, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665 "2005-06-24T13:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/21 "2005-06-24T15:57:17Z")
> [@poeticyde](#): > > Well, sorry. I guess you can’t please all of the people all of the time…but don’t go wishing that the movie bombs just because its something you don’t want to see. There are plenty of us out there that appreciate what was presented, understand that “sh!t happens” in a realistic world, and would love to see what else would happen in that universe. Having been forewarned, maybe you would be best pretending the movie doesn’t exist…like I do with the Star Wars prequals. 😃 I’ll wish the movie bombs because I don’t like choosing between my revulsion at Whedon’s sadistic hatred of his characters and my compulsive need to “complete” things. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/22 "2005-06-24T16:36:52Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I’ll wish the movie bombs because I don’t like choosing between my revulsion at Whedon’s sadistic hatred of his characters and my compulsive need to “complete” things. And thus those of us who aren’t little children should be denied the continuation of this universe because Whedon’s style of writing doesn’t appeal to you. Wah. Get over it. Don’t watch it, but don’t wish its loss on those of us who actually like Firefly/Serenity. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/23 "2005-06-24T16:38:39Z")
I’m aware of what happens in “Serenity” and I’m afraid I don’t get how that equates to Whedon hating the characters he’s created. I’ll just disagree, I guess. One thing I’m curious about: who ends up carrying out the job function of the second person we’re talking about here (boxed spoiler, please if anyone cares to answer)? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/24 "2005-06-24T16:39:52Z")
El\_Kabong, Mal flies Serenity out at the end, with River looking over his shoulder, learning. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/25 "2005-06-24T16:43:50Z")
And I agree: how is it “hatred” of a character to kill them for dramatic purpose? Killing Wash was dramatically brave – it increased the “danger” of the finale for all the other characters ENORMOUSLY. Serenity is the first movie in a long time where, at the end, I was actually afraid of the good guys being killed. Why? Because Serenity was wrecked (no escape) and the most likeable character had just been killed – which came as a total shock. That was very daring – most writers are AFRAID to harm characters that the audience likes or is attached to. We should be applauding Joss, not whining about him not being like all the other wimps. But, hey, perhaps some people like more fluff and puppy dogs in their entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/26 "2005-06-24T16:49:45Z")
First of all, congratulations! You’ve spoiled the movie for yourself in a very real sense. Kiros and Poeticide have already commented on the dramatic necessity of the scene in question. I concur with them. You, knowing the ending, will have a significantly diminished reaction to the film, even if you got over your other issues about it. That’s a warning for the rest of you lurkers out there. I know you all aren’t as lucky as some of us, and have to wait until September, but it’ll be worth it! This is a spoilerable film! Avoid all reviews! Avoid all discussion! Shun Firefly TV threads if you have to! Turn back now! Secondly, condemning a movie, and hoping that it will bomb, that you haven’t even seen yet is simply puerile. You cannot say whether this even will or will not work for you in its context. [spoiler] I also agree with Ouros. I like Whedon products because they have some measure of honesty and reality to them. They’re funny, sure, but there’s a big darkness there. His characters deal with nasty things against impossible odds. From Reavers and the Sino-American Alliance, to demonic lawyers. It would be false if they weren’t ever significantly hurt, even “damaged” or killed, in the struggle. It would dilute their essential heroism if their character shields gave them full immunity. I didn’t like the Xander thing either, but he got off easy compared to the entire Angel crew, and I loved that. Oh, and Zoe mourns, all right. She freaks the hell out, in fact. As much as a strong, veteran soldier who is no stranger to death can freak out. It works. It’s darker than the tone of the series, and the stakes are higher, but that’s because it’s a feature film. It’s also true to the spirit of Firefly. Fans will enjoy this movie. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/27 "2005-06-24T17:02:01Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Rereading what I first said, I can see clarification is in order - sure, the talk of seeing foreshadows the loss of an eye. That doesn’t mean it’s not random. It means that at the writer’s table, plotting out the season, someone randomly said “Let’s gouge out Xander’s eye!” and then the others wrote a bunch of eye foreshadowing. > > And the “seeing” stuff is accurate, describes Xander’s role, et cetera - but does the loss of one of his eyes in a gruesome fashion add to the theme? It was a foil (reflection) of the overarching theme of sacrifice in the seventh season: Buffy sacrifices her pride (albeit temporarily, to the Potentials), Spike and Anya sacrifice their lives, Xander sacrificed his eye. (Of course, Spike got his life back in \*Angel \*- which, much as I love Blondy Bear, completely underminded the whole thing and was A Very Bad Move, IMHO.) But hey, if you want to hate a movie you haven’t seen because of some spoilers you’ve read, go right ahead. I’m just thinking about how I would have felt if I boycotted seasons 3-7 of \*Buffy \*and all of \*Angel \*because I heard in a spoiler that Angel dies at the end of season two of _Buffy_. Joss has proven to me again and again that he can make the most interesting choices for his characters - not the most pleasant, but the most interesting. I value interesting over hugs and puppies. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/28 "2005-06-24T17:03:18Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > And thus those of us who aren’t little children should be denied the continuation of this universe because Whedon’s style of writing doesn’t appeal to you. Wah. Get over it. Don’t watch it, but don’t wish its loss on those of us who actually like Firefly/Serenity. Aww, gee, you don’t like that I expressed my honest desire and opinions? Too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/29 "2005-06-24T17:04:27Z")
Thank you **Kiros** , **poeticyde** , and **Menocchio** for being far more eloquent on this subject then I could manage to be. All of you made the points I wish I had managed to convey. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/30 "2005-06-24T17:06:39Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > But hey, if you want to hate a movie you haven’t seen because of some spoilers you’ve read, go right ahead. I’m just thinking about how I would have felt if I boycotted seasons 3-7 of \*Buffy \*and all of \*Angel \*because I heard in a spoiler that Angel dies at the end of season two of _Buffy_. Joss has proven to me again and again that he can make the most interesting choices for his characters - not the most pleasant, but the most interesting. I value interesting over hugs and puppies. YMMV I value interesting over hugs and puppies too. But the tacked-on melodrama isn’t interesting to me, it’s that other thing… tedious. Joss has proven to me again and again that he desperately needs Prozac. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/31 "2005-06-24T17:12:19Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > First of all, congratulations! You’ve spoiled the movie for yourself in a very real sense. Kiros and Poeticide have already commented on the dramatic necessity of the scene in question. I concur with them. You, knowing the ending, will have a significantly diminished reaction to the film, even if you got over your other issues about it. > > Secondly, condemning a movie, and hoping that it will bomb, that you haven’t even seen yet is simply puerile. You cannot say whether this even will or will not work for you in its context. I’d argue that Whedon spoiled the movie for me, I just happened to find out before shelling out $7.50 for a ticket. I see you people defending the purpose of the scene and the way you describe that purpose boils down to “shock value” in my mind. Not a valid reason in my book. And yes, I can. For example, if someone told me that in Batman Returns, the Penguin would be a deformed freak and the whole thing would be sprayed liberally with Burton’s angsty-Goth sensibilities, I’d know I wouldn’t like the film, regardless of the other context. Certain things, no context can redeem for me. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/32 "2005-06-24T17:12:37Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I value interesting over hugs and puppies too. But the tacked-on melodrama isn’t interesting to me, it’s that other thing… tedious. Joss has proven to me again and again that he desperately needs Prozac. How can you call something “tacked-on melodrama” if you haven’t even seen it? Several people in this thread have commented on how the scene drastically affected the dramatic impact of the rest of the movie. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/33 "2005-06-24T17:15:36Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > How can you call something “tacked-on melodrama” if you haven’t even seen it? Several people in this thread have commented on how the scene drastically affected the dramatic impact of the rest of the movie. Jiminy H. Cricket. I can say that because those of you with the seeming vested interest in describing the thing in a positive light STILL describe it in such a way that it amounts to, in my opinion, tacked-on melodrama. I do not need to touch a kettle to learn it is hot after seeing five people burn their hands on it, even if four of them say it ‘wasn’t that bad.’ ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/34 "2005-06-24T17:18:14Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Aww, gee, you don’t like that I expressed my honest desire and opinions? Too bad. Why should I be denied a Serenity sequel just because you don’t like what happens in this one (a movie you haven’t even seen)? Why are you so fucking selfish? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/35 "2005-06-24T17:19:33Z")
It was not “tacked on melodrama.” It served a VERY specific dramatic purpose in the story. But widdle baby don’t wike it, so we should all be denied Serenity sequels. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/36 "2005-06-24T17:20:24Z")
I wasn’t aware you were entitled to a Serenity sequel, nor was I aware that my desire to see the movie bomb would have so great an impact on the movie’s revenues. I must use my absolute control of all reality for good, in the future, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/37 "2005-06-24T17:27:47Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I wasn’t aware you were entitled to a Serenity sequel, nor was I aware that my desire to see the movie bomb would have so great an impact on the movie’s revenues. I must use my absolute control of all reality for good, in the future, it seems. Why do you want to see the movie bomb? Why do you want those of us who WANT a sequel to be denied that sequel? Why are you such a child that if you don’t like something, you think it shouldn’t continue? It’s a truly pathetic person who sits around wishing failure on a movie that they haven’t even seen, because of spoilers they dont’ even really understand. Grow up. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/38 "2005-06-24T17:31:00Z")
Spectrum, calm down. It’s okay to disagree, but not to call names. Find a better way to get your point across than by slinging insults. This thread is also not to be used by the rest of you to throw stones at spectrum; if you disagree personally, take it elsewhere. As for further action, I’ll leave that to the moderators of this forum, who know best. your humble TubaDiva ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/39 "2005-06-24T17:31:38Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Why do you want to see the movie bomb? > [@Me](#): > > I’ll wish the movie bombs because I don’t like choosing between my revulsion at Whedon’s sadistic hatred of his characters and my compulsive need to “complete” things. Voila. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/40 "2005-06-24T17:34:55Z")
So you want the movie to fail because you have no self-control. Wah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665.md?page=3)