# Boycotting Joss Whedon - I think. (Warning: Open Spoilers for Serenity) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 24, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665 "2005-06-24T13:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/61 "2005-06-24T18:14:27Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > “Oh, God! Not my leg! Please, no! Not my leg!!! NOOOOO!!!”? > Melanie’s childbirth? > The burning of the depot? > Rhett’s leaving Scarlett on the road with a newborn, a sick mother, a senseless ninny, a dying horse and no food? > The burnt out shell of 12 Oaks? > Scarlett’s first view of her dead mother - dead only hours before she finally made it back home? > The madman that is Mr. O’Hara? > “As God as my witness…I’ll never be hungry again!” from our proud, proud Scarlett? > Mr. O’Hara’s death? > Scarlett’s betrayal of her sister? > The near rape in the shantytown? > The death of Frank? > Melanie’s death? > > Really, I could go on…suckerpuch after suckerpunch of beautiful, angsty, over-the-top melodrama. And it all works beautifully. Are you referencing the novel, or the movie? I don’t remember some of those things… but I haven’t read the novel. And I don’t really see it as analogous to the Whedon stuff - again, one of the issues is that we’re talking about comic relief characters, of which Gone With the Wind has… well, I guess you can count the nanny, sort of. Another issue is one of mixed tone, a big problem Whedon has. Shifting from horrible death and destruction to quip or sight gag in 2.2 seconds, it’s not organic. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/62 "2005-06-24T18:23:33Z")
Those are all from the movie. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/63 "2005-06-24T18:24:34Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Those are all from the movie. I definitely don’t remember the near-rape. It’s been a while since I’ve seen it though. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/64 "2005-06-24T18:25:39Z")
Oh, and Xander started moving away from being simple comic relief in season five. He still had his moments in season six, but seven was all Andrew’s party. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/65 "2005-06-24T18:27:24Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Oh, and Xander started moving away from being simple comic relief in season five. He still had his moments in season six, but seven was all Andrew’s party. Another complaint I have about season seven, but one which is not germane to this thread. I like Andrew - he’s funny. But Xander was criminally under-utilized in season seven. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/66 "2005-06-24T18:27:51Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I definitely don’t remember the near-rape. It’s been a while since I’ve seen it though. The attempted rape was the reason for the men’s decision to go “clean out” the shantytown, which resulted in Frank (Scarlett’s husband) being killed. It was not very graphically sexual in the movie, but she was grabbed by several scary men and her carriage nearly fell off a bridge before Black Sam saved her. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/67 "2005-06-24T18:28:39Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > The attempted rape was the reason for the men’s decision to go “clean out” the shantytown, which resulted in Frank (Scarlett’s husband) being killed. It was not very graphically sexual in the movie, but she was grabbed by several scary men and her carriage nearly fell off a bridge before Black Sam saved her. Ahhhh… okay, that rings a bell. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/68 "2005-06-24T18:30:57Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Refraining from spoilers in this thread is a matter of respect for other people’s desire not to be spoiled. > > For me to buckle and watch the movie just because you folks seem to want me to, has nothing to do with respect. My skipping the movie affects you not one whit. I was referring to the fact that you were attempting to argue from superiority with **spectrum** , due to the fact that you’ve read spoilers. It seems a bit ironic considering you have no problem disagreeing wtih people who have actually gotten their information first-hand. I don’t care one way or the other if you see the movie or not. I just think your opinions are ill-informed. Also, do you have any other examples of this hack-writing staple of abuse to comic relief characters? This is the first time I’ve ever heard of such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/69 "2005-06-24T18:35:40Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > I was referring to the fact that you were attempting to argue from superiority with **spectrum** , due to the fact that you’ve read spoilers. It seems a bit ironic considering you have no problem disagreeing wtih people who have actually gotten their information first-hand. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I was warning him not to spoil the movie for anyone who might happen by, because what he said might be viewed as spoilers by some. > [@](#): > > I don’t care one way or the other if you see the movie or not. I just think your opinions are ill-informed. That’s your opinion and you’re more than welcome to it. > [@](#): > > Also, do you have any other examples of this hack-writing staple of abuse to comic relief characters? This is the first time I’ve ever heard of such a thing. It’s not limited to comic relief characters. Producer 1: “We need to ratchet up the drama, people are having too much fun watching the movie.” Producer 2 : “Okay - suddenly kill or maim one of the most popular characters.” Writer : “Which one? I want to make sure it fits in with the overarching story I’m developing, because -” Producers : “Shut up and go get the dartboard.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/70 "2005-06-24T18:36:16Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > For me to buckle and watch the movie just because you folks seem to want me to, has nothing to do with respect. My skipping the movie affects you not one whit. **Orual** has a point. You’re sounding like someone who avoids Hooters because they “know” what goes on in them, only they don’t know because they’ve never been in one. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/71 "2005-06-24T18:41:05Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > **Orual** has a point. You’re sounding like someone who avoids Hooters because they “know” what goes on in them, only they don’t know because they’ve never been in one. … except they’ve had people with a seeming vested interest in persuading them that they don’t know what’s going on, and providing detailed testamonials to that effect. Indirect evidence is still evidence. It’s the basis of the criminal court system. If your argument for the defense is “Well, sure he murdered the guy, but he had a good reason!” then I’m gonna convict. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/72 "2005-06-24T18:41:32Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I don’t know what you’re talking about. I was warning him not to spoil the movie for anyone who might happen by, because what he said might be viewed as spoilers by some. Ah, I misunderstood. I do that a lot here. Sorry. > [@](#): > > It’s not limited to comic relief characters. > > Producer 1: “We need to ratchet up the drama, people are having too much fun watching the movie.” > > Producer 2 : “Okay - suddenly kill or maim one of the most popular characters.” > > Writer : “Which one? I want to make sure it fits in with the overarching story I’m developing, because -” > > Producers : “Shut up and go get the dartboard.” Well, you’ve said that you don’t think character pain/dismemberment/death is bad, I was just looking for some non-Jossverse examples, so I could figure out where you were coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/73 "2005-06-24T18:50:30Z")
AAAARRRRGHHH!!! Why, oh WHY did I open this thread? Why did I read it? Why did I highlight the first line of a spoiler that I thought was talking about an episode!?! ::cries:: ☹ ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/74 "2005-06-24T18:50:50Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > Well, you’ve said that you don’t think character pain/dismemberment/death is bad, I was just looking for some non-Jossverse examples, so I could figure out where you were coming from. You know where you see it most often? B-Horror movies. It’s even become a cliche of the genre. Sudden, shock value death or dismemberment, to “one of the ones you thought would survive, gasp, shock!” ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/75 "2005-06-24T18:52:14Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > AAAARRRRGHHH!!! Why, oh WHY did I open this thread? Why did I read it? Why did I highlight the first line of a spoiler that I thought was talking about an episode!?! > > ::cries:: > > ☹ I’m sorry, Knouf - I did my best to make it clear. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/76 "2005-06-24T18:59:20Z")
Well, I knew you were talking about the movie, but as glanced through and thought one of the boxes was about an episode. I was very, very wrong. But now that I know, I don’t have a problem with it, per se, assuming the event fits in with the plot reaosnably well and isn’t just gratuitous. Joss Whedon is known for being unafraid of killing of major characters when it serves a larger dramatic purpose. For example: Jenny Calendar, Joyce Summers, Buffy herself, Angel, all in BtVS; Doyle, Cordelia, Fred ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/77 "2005-06-24T18:59:59Z")
Well, this is probably closing the horse long after the stable door has been stolen, because I suspect all the Whedon/Serenity fans have read this thread long ago, but I have changed the title to indicate that there are unboxed spoilers. And I’m going to echo **TubaDiva** ’s warning in very clear and very stern terms: **spectrum** , name-calling is NOT permitted in this forum. You may say what you like about Joss Whedon or his works, you may be critical of what other people say, but you may not call them names. There is a difference between what a person says and what a person is. Thus, saying an opinion is puerile is permitted. Saying that a person is childish is NOT permitted. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/78 "2005-06-24T19:00:34Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > … except they’ve had people with a seeming vested interest in persuading them that they don’t know what’s going on, and providing detailed testamonials to that effect. How is this different from you basing such an exteme opnion on reviews and spoilers without you ever having seen the context? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/79 "2005-06-24T19:04:29Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > How is this different from you basing such an exteme opnion on reviews and spoilers without you ever having seen the context? It isn’t. Your analogy was incomplete, and I was providing additional detail to make it, y’know, analogous. With the additional material, it’s actually similar. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665/80 "2005-06-24T19:04:53Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Joss Whedon is known for being unafraid of killing of major characters when it serves a larger dramatic purpose. I had known that a major character likely buys the farm ever since the first thread on Serenity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boycotting-joss-whedon-i-think-warning-open-spoilers-for-serenity/309665.md?page=5)