# Boyfriend dies in Youtube prank/stunt video, girlfriend charged with manslaughter **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080 "2017-06-28T19:33:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/221 "2017-06-30T16:58:43Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > Do you mean because it only included a quote and the gist of the information, rather than being properly sourced? Okay. Now that I am back on my computer, here you go: > > [Murder vs. manslaughter | CBC News](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/murder-vs-manslaughter-1.1155132) > > Or did you mean because the information was incorrect? Because as I said in my earlier post, that’s entirely possible. Do you have information that contradicts what this page says, or evidence that I’m misinterpreting? As I said, I’d be happy to acknowledge my error if indeed I am wrong. Both! 🙂 That cite does not establish that Canadian law has a purely objective test for criminal negligence that does not also require conscious disregard. It specifically mentions reckless disregard, which at common law and in U.S. law is a subjective test. Northern Piper’s explanation above my post is closer to what you want. But I’m a little skeptical to be honest. I’d like to see some case law saying that objective unreasonableness is enough in the absence of mental disability (or similar) to convict for recklessness crimes. That would be different from U.S. law. What I would expect is that it’s easy to get a presumption of recklessness from the objective unreasonableness in the absence of some contrary testimony, but that if the person testified that they lacked conscious disregard and was believed that a jury would be obligated to acquit. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/222 "2017-06-30T17:00:12Z")
The entire conversation hinges on what you think the purpose of criminal conviction and incarceration is. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/223 "2017-06-30T17:05:09Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The entire conversation hinges on what you think the purpose of criminal conviction and incarceration is. Correct. “Justice” is hard to precisely define. Mercy and understanding are not. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/224 "2017-06-30T17:15:15Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The entire conversation hinges on what you think the purpose of criminal conviction and incarceration is. To punish people for breaking the law? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/225 "2017-06-30T17:22:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > To punish people for breaking the law? That is one potential purpose. It isn’t the only one. It isn’t particularly mine, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/226 "2017-06-30T17:26:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > To punish people for breaking the law? Why? I don’t feel the need to do that in many cases. Deterrence? Sure, to an extent. Protect us for violent individuals? You bet. To “punish?” No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/227 "2017-06-30T18:00:02Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Why? I don’t feel the need to do that in many cases. Deterrence? Sure, to an extent. Protect us for violent individuals? You bet. To “punish?” No thanks. I’m not sure how the threat of jail is “deterrence” if jail itself is not punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/228 "2017-06-30T18:01:26Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m not sure how the threat of jail is “deterrence” if jail itself is not punishment. It is punishment, but that’s not the goal. For example, in this case there really is no need for deterrence. Most people don’t have any desire to accidentally kill their boyfriend. So, it would be simply punishment, and in my view, unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/229 "2017-06-30T18:30:47Z")
This seems strange to me. I hope you don’t have children who see your opinion on this: “You don’t think a woman should be punished for shooting and killing her boyfriend, but I’m punished because I’m an hour over curfew??” (only somewhat joking on that) She should be punished for doing something extremely stupid that led to the death of a human being. It’s a simple as that, to me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/230 "2017-06-30T18:43:59Z")
To me, it serves no useful purpose. Her being without the father of her child and love of her life because of both of their stupidities is punishment enough and then some to me. It serves absolutely no purpose and is a waste of taxpayer money to incarcerate her. (This is assuming all is as it seems in the story.) To use your rather dissimilar child analogy and make it more congruent: if my daughter and her best friend were playing on the railroad tracks and then her best friend got ran over because they were both being fucking idiots and didn’t listen to us, what’s the utility in punishing them now? I would see absolutely no point in punishment. She learned her lesson; her best friend is dead. There’s no punishment that could drive the lesson home any more than that one. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/231 "2017-06-30T18:44:58Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This seems strange to me. I hope you don’t have children who see your opinion on this: > > “You don’t think a woman should be punished for shooting and killing her boyfriend, but I’m punished because I’m an hour over curfew??” > > (only somewhat joking on that) I was terrible at punishing my kids. I guess I’m missing the gene or something. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/232 "2017-06-30T18:45:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This seems strange to me. I hope you don’t have children who see your opinion on this: > > “You don’t think a woman should be punished for shooting and killing her boyfriend, but I’m punished because I’m an hour over curfew??” > > (only somewhat joking on that) > > She should be punished for doing something extremely stupid that led to the death of a human being. It’s a simple as that, to me. You should really be able to explain why you punish your children. It’s a good check on whether your punishment is warranted and proportional. For example, I punish my kids to change their future behavior. I don’t punish innocent mistakes, nor do I use punishment in situations in which it doesn’t work (as, for example, when a reward system is much more effective). I don’t punish solely for retribution or to make me feel good about myself. I would hope most parents are the same, but I know they aren’t. Of course, adults aren’t children. So not all the same principles apply. But you should still be able to articulate rationally defensible principles. If you can’t, that’s a good sign that you’re acting out of emotion or baseless tradition rather than reason. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/233 "2017-06-30T19:10:25Z")
Yeah, yeah, if you want to abolish laws against everything, then go right ahead and do that. She took a gun, pointed it at her idiot boyfriend, and pulled the trigger. Any reasonable person would know this was very dangerous. And it was actually dangerous. Arguing that she was too stupid to know it was dangerous and therefore it wasn’t a crime gives any idiot the license to commit any crime. The standard is not “was she too dumb to know it was dangerous?”, but “would any reasonable person know it was dangerous?”. And it clearly is. Did she mean to kill him? No, but she pointed a gun at a man and pulled the trigger. If she’s too dumb to know why that would be a bad idea, then she’s too dumb to be allowed to walk around the streets and needs to be in some sort of supervised custody. Except she’s not literally mentally disabled with the mind of a child. Or so I assume. Maybe her lawyers will try to argue that she’s too mentally incompetent to stand trial. Absent that, she should be treated like someone who takes out their cell phone and starts texting while driving on the freeway and then crashes into someone and kills them. Did they mean to kill the person they ran over? No. Are they horribly upset that they killed a guy? Sure. Does that mean that we then pat them on the head and declare they’ve suffered enough? They didn’t mean it, it was an accident? Extreme negligence and recklessness that ends up killing people is and should be criminal. Again, she pointed a gun at someone and pulled the trigger. And she thought it wouldn’t kill the victim, because the victim assured her that a flimsy book would stop the bullet. Textbook manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/234 "2017-06-30T19:12:38Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > The SawStop stunt is somewhat on point here because of just how different it is. First off, the SawStop guy doesn’t routinely stick his finger into his table saw. His demos are generally done using wieners. His own, or does he ask for a volunteer? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/235 "2017-06-30T19:18:45Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Extreme negligence and recklessness that ends up killing people is and should be criminal. Again, she pointed a gun at someone and pulled the trigger. And she thought it wouldn’t kill the victim, because the victim assured her that a flimsy book would stop the bullet. Textbook manslaughter. Yep. But as far as I can tell, the debate here is mostly about whether she should be incarcerated. Some say yes, some say no. Personally, I’m not getting the connection between “criminal act” (even manslaughter) _automatically_ equaling “prison.” Sure, in many cases it makes sense. In this one, I think not. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/236 "2017-06-30T19:19:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You should really be able to explain why you punish your children. It’s a good check on whether your punishment is warranted and proportional. For example, I punish my kids to change their future behavior. I don’t punish innocent mistakes, nor do I use punishment in situations in which it doesn’t work (as, for example, when a reward system is much more effective). I don’t punish solely for retribution or to make me feel good about myself. I would hope most parents are the same, but I know they aren’t. > > Of course, adults aren’t children. So not all the same principles apply. But you should still be able to articulate rationally defensible principles. If you can’t, that’s a good sign that you’re acting out of emotion or baseless tradition rather than reason. I did articulate a rational defensible principle - she should be punished for doing something stupid that led to the death of a human being. Same as the drunk driver who ran over someone and killed them. Same as the safety inspector that pencil whipped a safety inspection that led to the death of a human being. Same as a military officer who disregarded orders and got his men killed. If there is no threat of punishment, then there will be little to no motivation to change these behaviors. If there was no punishment for driving drunk, then I wouldn’t need a taxi to go home after the bar. I could just drive home, drunk and all. If I killed someone, my punishment can just be the bad feelings I have about killing someone. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/237 "2017-06-30T19:21:05Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > To me, it serves no useful purpose. Her being without the father of her child and love of her life because of both of their stupidities is punishment enough and then some to me. It serves absolutely no purpose and is a waste of taxpayer money to incarcerate her. (This is assuming all is as it seems in the story.) To use your rather dissimilar child analogy and make it more congruent: if my daughter and her best friend were playing on the railroad tracks and then her best friend got ran over because they were both being fucking idiots and didn’t listen to us, what’s the utility in punishing them now? I would see absolutely no point in punishment. She learned her lesson; her best friend is dead. There’s no punishment that could drive the lesson home any more than that one. It does serve a useful purpose - to society as a whole. It lets other people know that doing stupid things can have serious repercussions. As someone once said “No man is completely useless; he can always serve as a bad example…" ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/238 "2017-06-30T19:22:48Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Yep. But as far as I can tell, the debate here is mostly about whether she should be incarcerated. Some say yes, some say no. > > Personally, I’m not getting the connection between “criminal act” (even manslaughter) _automatically_ equaling “prison.” Sure, in many cases it makes sense. In this one, I think not. I don’t equate “criminal act” with “prison” I equate “unlawfully shooting a human being and killing them” with “prison” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/239 "2017-06-30T19:26:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I did articulate a rational defensible principle - she should be punished for doing something stupid that led to the death of a human being. No, that’s just circular logic. She should be punished because she should be punished. > [@Slash1972](#): > > If there is no threat of punishment, then there will be little to no motivation to change these behaviors. This is what people mean when they say “deterrence.” So you can go back and read the replies that explain why people think the deterrence rationale doesn’t make sense here, and realize they’re talking about you. > [@Slash1972](#): > > If there was no punishment for driving drunk, then I wouldn’t need a taxi to go home after the bar. I could just drive home, drunk and all. If I killed someone, my punishment can just be the bad feelings I have about killing someone. :dubious: Here, again, you’re alluding to some kind of moral retribution, I think. But you don’t seem to quite realize you’re doing it. I encourage you to explore that aspect of your thinking, to the extent it is separate from your deterrence argument. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080/240 "2017-06-30T19:36:51Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > It does serve a useful purpose - to society as a whole. > It lets other people know that doing stupid things can have serious repercussions. > As someone once said “No man is completely useless; he can always serve as a bad example…" We have a fine precedent in the case of [Johannes Mehserle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Oscar_Grant), who was convicted of manslaughter (and served prison time) for the accidental shooting of a man (Mehserle mistakenly grabbed his handgun instead of his taser). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boyfriend-dies-in-youtube-prank-stunt-video-girlfriend-charged-with-manslaughter/790080.md?page=13)