# "Boys will be boys!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472 "2016-07-09T15:27:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/61 "2016-07-12T10:50:37Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Did… did you actually read the bit of my post which you quoted? The one where I agree that people on the receiving end of a dacking are allowed to be embarrassed by it? Yes. You also said it was no big deal. That’s where you’re wrong. Being forcibly disrobed is threatening to a girl or a woman. It’s a bigger deal to them than to boys or men. You don’t seem to understand that. Maybe your mates, who had the unwritten rule of NOT doing that to a girl, had some understanding of that. It’s like going topless is almost expected of men at the beach but it would be scandalous in most places for a woman to do that. Touching people without their consent, or in a manner they find objectionable, is wrong\*. That applies just as much to children as to adults. - There are a few exceptions, such as restraining a violent person who’s a threat to others, but they’re an exception, not the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/62 "2016-07-12T11:20:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes. You also said it was no big deal. That’s where you’re wrong. > > Being forcibly disrobed is threatening to a girl or a woman. It’s a bigger deal to them than to boys or men. You don’t seem to understand that. Neither do I. We are not talking about a woman but about a small girl and small boys. So there is no sexual element to be afraid of. You think it is not ‘traumatic’ for boys? You think boys getting a wedgie is just boys being boys? > [@](#): > > Touching people without their consent, or in a manner they find objectionable, is wrong\*. That applies just as much to children as to adults. Right, so what is the appropriate reaction? Kneeing someone in the face? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/63 "2016-07-12T12:01:05Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Neither do I. > We are not talking about a woman but about a small girl and small boys. So there is no sexual element to be afraid of. Bullshit. Children are not sexless. They’re aware of gender, sex, and are curious. They also sometime use sex/gendered actions or word to bully each other. > [@](#): > > You think it is not ‘traumatic’ for boys? Absolutely. > [@](#): > > You think boys getting a wedgie is just boys being boys? That is also unacceptable behavior. > [@](#): > > Right, so what is the appropriate reaction? Kneeing someone in the face? Yes, yes I do think so. I wouldn’t condone breaking someone’s nose over the action but yes, a knee to the face seems appropriate. It’s direct, immediate, and sends a message. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/64 "2016-07-12T12:01:55Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Far more often “boys will be boys” was used to explain why we were playing footy on a muddy field in our school uniform, or why the penis was drawn on the passed out drunk boy’s forehead, or why we were loud and boisterous in class and got in trouble with the teacher… This. There’s a few odd examples in this thread to the contrary, but I’ve NEVER heard this expression, or the general sentiment, to refer to anything other than simply as a response to why boys, or men in general, are typically rougher, more aggressive, than girls. It’s a fine “explanation” for why boys will roughhouse with each other, or name-call, and it’s a sign of affection and male bonding. Even as adults, my male friends and I are constantly ragging on each other, playing small pranks, even the ocassional not-so-gentle punch or push or whatever. This is the sort of thing “boys will be boys” is intended to describe. That said, I’ll also be the first to tear down an instance if I see someone saying that as a way to defend a boy, and especially a man, if it’s anything even resembling sexual assault or if it’s with malice rather than playful, and it’s a pretty thick line in my experience, though sometimes it can go from playful roughhousing to fighting in the span of a few seconds if someone gets hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/65 "2016-07-12T12:33:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Thank you :rolleyes: for mansplaining that a female person should not object or feel threatened by having clothing forcibly removed by a male person. Hold up–this is an incredibly ungenerous reading of what he’s said. First, he didn’t say “a female person”, he said, “someone.” Your gendered paraphrase is a misreading of his point, for no clear purpose: he’s including boys in the victims, which is the correct approach. Second, he says that they might feel “embarrassed or humiliated.” That’s completely the opposite of saying they “should not object or feel threatened.” Edit: and your later clarification, that he said it was “no big deal”? He did not say that. I don’t know what you misread to get that as a takeaway, but that’s not what he said. It’s fine to disagree with someone, but to do so through a misreading of their words doesn’t help anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/66 "2016-07-12T12:40:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, yes I do think so. I wouldn’t condone breaking someone’s nose over the action but yes, a knee to the face seems appropriate. It’s direct, immediate, and sends a message. So, corporal punishment is in again? How about spanking, corrective slap? We’ve had decades of drumming into us that _any_ form of violence was _never_ acceptable. Were we wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/67 "2016-07-12T13:06:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Let it go **Martini Enfield** , once “mansplaining” is raised, the argument is as good as lost. You’re right; I’m out. I don’t know why I even bother sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/68 "2016-07-12T13:11:57Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > So, corporal punishment is in again? > How about spanking, corrective slap? > We’ve had decades of drumming into us that _any_ form of violence was _never_ acceptable. Were we wrong? Corporal punishment and self-defense are totally not the same thing. > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > You’re right; I’m out. I don’t know why I even bother sometimes. Weirdly, **Broomstick’s** use of “mansplaining” is, as far as I can tell, spot-on. If a man explains to a woman why a girl shouldn’t feel threatened by an action, when the woman has said she’d have felt threatened as a girl, that’s pretty much exactly why “mansplaining” was neologized. The problem isn’t the word’s use; the problem is that she completely misunderstood what you were saying. You WEREN’T saying that a girl shouldn’t feel threatened. The word’s fine; her understanding of your point was at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/69 "2016-07-12T13:14:04Z")
> [@lilihob](#): > > At eleven, children in the UK start secondary school, I believe that the school just wanted to kick the can down the road until he was the secondary schools problem. > It was almost summer, they were both leaving that school forever. > I could have fought for expulsion, but a longer summer holiday is not a punishment. > I… Honestly, you should have fought for the administrator’s/teacher’s expulsion. Dismissing that action as “boys will be boys” is as disturbing as the action that brought on the event. Glad your daughter wasn’t hurt. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/70 "2016-07-12T13:15:33Z")
That’s not ‘corporal punishment’, it’s ‘fighting back’. Different thing. ---
**Author:** ![lilihob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9adbd/32.png) [@lilihob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilihob)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/71 "2016-07-12T13:42:20Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > So, corporal punishment is in again? > How about spanking, corrective slap? > We’ve had decades of drumming into us that _any_ form of violence was _never_ acceptable. Were we wrong? He tried to pull her trousers down from the front. If you attempted to grab her waistband and yank down, you’d have to bend, your face would be in a perfect place for an instinctive knee to the nose. You’ve just repeated the same violence is never the answer crap that the teacher attempted to feed my daughter and me. If he had successfully pulled her trousers down, and she’d punched him an hour later in revenge, I’d have still defended her, but I’d see your point. A knee in the moment? Natural consequence. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/72 "2016-07-12T13:45:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Treating men and women as equals leads to the “boys will will be boys” attitude? > > How exactly does that work? Phrasing it the way that you have does not work. I said that men and woman are equal but needed to be approached differently, this is important when dealing with children, boys and girls think differently, to get them to understand about acceptable behaviour you have to tune in to their individual ways of thinking ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/73 "2016-07-12T14:17:34Z")
> [@lilihob](#): > > He tried to pull her trousers down from the front. > If you attempted to grab her waistband and yank down, you’d have to bend, your face would be in a perfect place for an instinctive knee to the nose. > **You’ve just repeated the same violence is never the answer crap** that the teacher attempted to feed my daughter and me. > If he had successfully pulled her trousers down, and she’d punched him an hour later in revenge, I’d have still defended her, but I’d see your point. > A knee in the moment? > Natural consequence. OK. How do you feel about some forms of violence against women? An instinctual self defence where a woman screams in your face, an inch from your nose, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/74 "2016-07-12T14:32:50Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > :rolleyes: Yes. Yes, I know that. My point in bringing up mooning was as evidence that the removal of a person’s pants (their own or someone else’s) need not necessarily be a sexual act. Forcibly removing someone’s pants as a “prank” is an inherently sexual act, no matter how much you want to deny it. The huge element of sexual humiliation of exposing someone’s genitals and anus (even if they’re wearing underwear, the region is being more exposed than it was) is blatant and obvious. Denying the obvious sexual nature of humiliating someone by removing cover from their genitals is just simple denial, like claiming that frat rituals involving holding genitals and/or anal penetration are absolutely ‘no homo’. > [@](#): > > If you do in fact claim that every single instance—not just some, not most, but all—of a person pulling down another person’s pants is a _sexual_ assault— I don’t think that anyone is claiming that consensually or medically removing clothes is sexual assault, so this is a strawman. > [@](#): > > not just a violation or a Bad Thing To Do but a specifically sexual assault—then please, explain why you think so and respond directly to the reasons some of us have given for not thinking so. If this is not what you claim, then we don’t have an argument. I haven’t seen anyone give reasons for not thinking so that go beyond “I don’t want to admit that forcibly exposing people’s genital region is a sexually charged assault,” or “They’re kids so nothing they do could possibly be sexual”, neither of which I’d qualify as ‘reasons’. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/75 "2016-07-12T14:46:05Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > OK. > How do you feel about some forms of violence against women? > An instinctual self defence where a woman screams in your face, an inch from your nose, for instance. I do not start fights but will always defend myself be it against man, woman or beast ---
**Author:** ![lilihob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9adbd/32.png) [@lilihob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilihob)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/76 "2016-07-12T15:23:46Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > OK. > How do you feel about some forms of violence against women? > An instinctual self defence where a woman screams in your face, an inch from your nose, for instance. You’d push her away forcefully. If she got a knee to the face because she was trying to pull your trousers down against your will, I’d entirely support you. Boys will be boys pisses me off because it defends some shitty behaviour, it doesn’t mean that I’m advocating for female on male beatings. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/77 "2016-07-12T16:22:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It’s a bigger deal to them than to boys or men. You don’t seem to understand that. How do you know that? Re: the bigger point. No, pantsing is not necessarily sexual. But it is a malicious use of power to abridge consent. Letting it go as ‘not a big deal’ or ‘a prank’ is exactly the sort of thing that the term ‘rape culture’ is meant to describe, in both in how it reinforces/encourages aggressors and how it shames and silences victims. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/78 "2016-07-12T16:58:10Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > It is a saying that should only be used concerning young children, Generally girls will dance around the puddles boys will plough straight through them. Girls tend to think things through, boys just do it and say oops, sorry, pardon afterwards, a good parent will teach a child to think before they act and decent standards of behaviour. In the early years a good teacher will recognise the different behaviour between girls and boys and channel a boys exuberance for life, as they progress through school they will hopefully be taught to learn and encouraged to use there natural curiosity. In the UK one of the problems in primary and junior schools is a lack of male teachers this linked to a growing number of single mothers means that boys do not have good male roll models to follow. > Men and woman are equal BUT they are very different and the one size fits all culture does not work and leads to the application of the dreadful boys will be boys attitude towards unacceptable adult male behaviour. Your generalization of girls’ vs. boys’ behavior is inaccurate. BTW, apparently another problem in UK schools is that they don’t teach the difference between “their” and “there.” Also, it’s a “role model” (as in a role an actor plays), not a “roll model.” ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/79 "2016-07-12T17:03:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Thank you :rolleyes: for mansplaining… No, thank you for another inappropriate use of the term “mansplaining”. We pants’d each other as well in the Midwest in the 90s. Nothing as extrem as Gary and Wyatt in _Weird science_ in front of the cheerleading team. We didn’t do it to girls, just like we didn’t knock the books out of girls hands in the middle of the hallway, or punch girls in the arm. Boys socialize with each other different than girls. Girls can be just as cruel only more subtle. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472/80 "2016-07-12T20:26:25Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > Your generalization of girls’ vs. boys’ behavior is inaccurate. > > BTW, apparently another problem in UK schools is that they don’t teach the difference between “their” and “there.” Also, it’s a “role model” (as in a role an actor plays), not a “roll model.” Does this meen that you have nuffing to add to the conversation [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/boys-will-be-boys/759472.md?page=5)