# Bradley Manning **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873 "2013-08-22T14:45:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/61 "2013-08-22T19:21:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Explain to me how “saying you’re a woman doesn’t make you a woman” is a bigoted statement, then. Well, for starters, it’s a blatant and, I’m fairly certain, deliberate misrepresentation of what it means to be transexual. So, that’s a big red flag. On top of that, we have posts where you’ve described transexuals as indulging in “fantasies,” you dismissed Manning’s desire to be identified by a woman’s name a “silly little nickname,” you wrote off her entire problem with gender dysphoria as her “wanting to play dress-up,” you’ve asserted that transexuality is “not a condition that requires medical treatment,” and you’ve repeatedly lied about both Manning seeking surgery while in prison, _and_ about other people advocating that she should receive surgery in prison. Oh, and you’ve said that Manning came out as transexual to make people feel sorry for her. Because transexuals have such a position of respect and admiration in the US. But then, bigots often try to recast their victims as holding some sort of elite or protected status in society, because even in their\* dim proto-brains, they realize that picking on people who are weaker then them looks bad. [sub]\*By “their” I, of course, mean “your.”[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/62 "2013-08-22T19:29:38Z")
BEHOLD the usual bigot. When told they are wrong, they repeat untrue facts. Over. And over. And over. And over. And over. Smapti, you have been called out by Miller as OUTRIGHT LYING in other posts. Explain to my why I would want to have a conversation with an outright liar who just keeps repeating false facts? Maybe you should just shut the hell up because you honestly are NOT fooling anyone. As much as you whine and cry that you’re being called a bigot, it’s very, obviously clear that you are, and don’t mind being so. You are a known liar. This is not up for debate - you lied about Manning demanding surgery, which was 100% not true, and did not apologize for that. Until you correct that - until you stop lying in order to promote your little campaign of hate - all you deserve are insults. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/63 "2013-08-22T19:30:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I haven’t said a single hateful thing about anyone other than Bradley Manning. By name. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/64 "2013-08-22T19:32:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, for starters, it’s a blatant and, I’m fairly certain, deliberate misrepresentation of what it means to be transexual. A transsexual is a person who wants to live as something other than the gender that they are. > [@](#): > > On top of that, we have posts where you’ve described transexuals as indulging in “fantasies,” you dismissed Manning’s desire to be identified by a woman’s name a “silly little nickname,” you wrote off her entire problem with gender dysphoria as her “wanting to play dress-up,” you’ve asserted that transexuality is “not a condition that requires medical treatment,” and you’ve repeatedly lied about both Manning seeking surgery while in prison, _and_ about other people advocating that she should receive surgery in prison. Oh, and you’ve said that Manning came out as transexual to make people feel sorry for her. 1. I never said there was anything _wrong_ with fantasizing about being the other gender, picking a silly nickname for yourself, or wanting to play dress-up (and let’s not forget it was _Manning himself_ who decided to introduce pictures of himself in drag into the record). My issue is with the claim that wanting to be a different gender means you _are_ a different gender, because wishing something doesn’t affect your biology. Claiming that transsexualism is justified because the person is not actually of their own gender is tacitly admitting that it would be _wrong_ for them to live as a member of the other gender if that weren’t the case - and to me _that’s_ the act of ignorance and bigotry. 2. Transsexualism does not require medical treatment. Nobody has ever died of being a closeted transsexual. It is elective cosmetic surgery (which you’ve yet to dispute) and it is not covered as a medical procedure by major insurance providers. 3. He’s had _years_ to make this kind of statement. Why wait until the day he’s sentenced to prison if not to try to make people feel sorry for him and/or try to weasel his way into a minimum-security women’s prison instead of the one he’s been sentenced to? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/65 "2013-08-22T19:34:10Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > You are a known liar. This is not up for debate - you lied about Manning demanding surgery, which was 100% not true, and did not apologize for that. Until you correct that - until you stop lying in order to promote your little campaign of hate - all you deserve are insults. I have no “little campaign of hate”, but if it’ll make you feel better, upon further review I was probably incorrect about the surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/66 "2013-08-22T19:35:15Z")
Smapti, you seem to again be saying untrue things - like the fact that Manning only is just now saying a woman, when in truth she had been doing it for quite some time. Might I recommend you trying to look things up, so you can post factually correct information? [How to search on Google - Google Search Help](https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/134479?hl=en) Should be able to help you in narrowing down some info! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/67 "2013-08-22T19:37:49Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Smapti, you seem to again be saying untrue things - like the fact that Manning only is just now saying a woman, when in truth she had been doing it for quite some time. [Funny how his statement saying he’s female has today’s date on it, then.](http://www.today.com/news/bradley-manning-i-want-live-woman-6C10974915) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/68 "2013-08-22T19:45:24Z")
Well, it’s certainly true that nothing has ever happened more than once. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/69 "2013-08-22T19:46:43Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t respect the views of anyone who doesn’t respect gender identity. > > Your posts and your views say you’re an asshole and you gave up the right to do anything about that when you decided to be transphobic. > [@Karrius](#): > > See? Look, there you go. Talk about treason, but throw in transphobic bullshit about how “DNA says he’s male”, and flat out totally make up facts like pretending that Manning hadn’t previously talked about her gender identity before her crimes. > > Facts don’t matter. Medical science doesn’t matter. All that matters is hatehatehatehatehate, that’s all these scum can spew. > > It’s fucking hate speech, pure and simple, but it’s “acceptable” hate speech so they get to spew it as much as they goddamn want to. Thank you both for saying for saying what I’d like to say, except that if I tried to say anything in this thread I’d just get all rage-frothy and say “fuck” a lot. This thread, both making me feel proud of and disappointed in the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/70 "2013-08-22T19:49:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 1. I never said there was anything _wrong_ with fantasizing about being the other gender, picking a silly nickname for yourself, or wanting to play dress-up (and let’s not forget it was _Manning himself_ who decided to introduce pictures of himself in drag into the record). My issue is with the claim that wanting to be a different gender means you _are_ a different gender, because wishing something doesn’t affect your biology. Claiming that transsexualism is justified because the person is not actually of their own gender is tacitly admitting that it would be _wrong_ for them to live as a member of the other gender if that weren’t the case - and to me _that’s_ the act of ignorance and bigotry. No, the main issue is that transexual people make you uncomfortable, and you react by belittling and mocking them. Oh, and hey, you played the “it’s the people calling me a bigot who are the real bigots” card! I’ve got Hate Bingo! > [@](#): > > 1. Transsexualism does not require medical treatment. Nobody has ever died of being a closeted transsexual. It is elective cosmetic surgery (which you’ve yet to dispute) and it is not covered as a medical procedure by major insurance providers. Something doesn’t have to be fatal to require medical treatment. Untreated transexuality has massively negative psychological repercussions, to the extent that nearly half of people diagnosed with it attempt suicide. When this was pointed out to you, you flippantly tried to use it to dismiss an argument made by another poster. I am, however, loving that you use “what medical insurance will cover” as the standard for what counts as a legitimate medical condition. These are people who would argue a gunshot wound to the head isn’t a condition that requires medical treatment, if they thought they could get away with it. Oh, and when you said I hadn’t disputed that it’s elective cosmetic surgery? That’s another lie. > [@](#): > > 1. He’s had _years_ to make this kind of statement. Why wait until the day he’s sentenced to prison if not to try to make people feel sorry for him and/or try to weasel his way into a minimum-security women’s prison instead of the one he’s been sentenced to? And, also, a lie. How many lies is that from you, now? Seems like an awful lot. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/71 "2013-08-22T19:51:03Z")
**Smapti** : Biological sex does not always align with a person’s gender identity or sexual orientation. Defining a person, particularly their social identity, by only considering their sex chromosomes or anatomy is incredibly ignorant. Mischaracterizing gender dysphoria as simply wanting ‘elective plastic surgery’ or a boob job - only reveals your offensive stupidity. Go ahead a skewer Manning for her crimes, but the way you are going on and on about her gender identity is hateful. Manning is going to return to society in 7-9 years, if for no other reason than self-interest, you should want her to return to society as a functionable and contributing member. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/72 "2013-08-22T19:54:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, the main issue is that transexual people make you uncomfortable, and you react by belittling and mocking them. I have nothing against transsexual people. I have a lot against people who say “It’s not my fault I committed treason, I’m a victim! Everyone feel sorry for me and stop talking about the serious crimes I committed!” > [@](#): > > Oh, and hey, you played the “it’s the people calling me a bigot who are the real bigots” card! I’ve got Hate Bingo! People who call me a bigot aren’t bigots. People who say that you _must_ have to have been “born in the wrong body” if you want to live as another gender are bigots. > [@](#): > > Something doesn’t have to be fatal to require medical treatment. Untreated transexuality has massively negative psychological repercussions, to the extent that nearly half of people diagnosed with it attempt suicide. And keeping him on suicide watch seems to have prevented that so far. As far as I’m concerned, he isn’t entitled to anything more than the bare minimum of what will keep him alive long enough to serve out his sentence. > [@](#): > > I am, however, loving that you use “what medical insurance will cover” as the standard for what counts as a legitimate medical condition. These are people who would argue a gunshot wound to the head isn’t a condition that requires medical treatment, if they thought they could get away with it. Gunshots to the head are covered under the health insurance policy I carry. > [@](#): > > Oh, and when you said I hadn’t disputed that it’s elective cosmetic surgery? That’s another lie. This is the first time I’ve seen you dispute it. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/73 "2013-08-22T19:56:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, and hey, you played the “it’s the people calling me a bigot who are the real bigots” card! I’ve got Hate Bingo! I’m pretty sure that’s the free space. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/74 "2013-08-22T19:58:14Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > **Smapti** : > > Biological sex does not always align with a person’s gender identity or sexual orientation. That makes no sense. Gender identity and sexual orientation are irrelevant to biological sex - if a person is biologically male, then they’re male, regardless of what they _wish_ they were. If I believe that I was meant to be born a tiger, it doesn’t make me a tiger. > [@](#): > > Defining a person, particularly their social identity, by only considering their sex chromosomes or anatomy is incredibly ignorant. Mischaracterizing gender dysphoria as simply wanting ‘elective plastic surgery’ or a boob job - only reveals your offensive stupidity. The core issue here is that someone isn’t comfortable with their body and wants to change it into something they’re comfortable with. I understand that. I don’t accept that that’s somehow a necessary medical procedure or that prisoners are entitled to it. > [@](#): > > Go ahead a skewer Manning for her crimes, but the way you are going on and on about her gender identity is hateful. Manning is going to return to society in 7-9 years, if for no other reason than self-interest, you should want her to return to society as a functionable and contributing member. I sincerely hope he won’t be a free man any earlier than 2038, and I doubt he has anything to contribute to society. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/75 "2013-08-22T20:00:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m learning so much today. So far I’ve learned both that Manning is suicidal because the Army won’t acknowledge his gender issues, and that he isn’t suicidal at all and was only put on suicide watch to embarrass him. > > Ignorance fought. Pull your head out of your ass and understand that you’re talking to different people about different things. Let’s recap: Bradley Manning was kept on suicide watch against the recommendation of his psychiatrists, who judged that he was not suicidal. ✓ The government wasted time and money humiliating Manning with no valid medical reason and opened themselves up to risk of Manning getting out early due to illegal pretrial punishment. Transpersons collectively are at a higher risk for mortality in part because they kill themselves when they’re unhappy with their bodies and demeaned by society. ✓ Should Manning get a sex change paid for by the state? Beats me. That’s the kind of question somebody would have to be an expert on trans issues, prison procedure, and healthcare to answer. When the sex change request gets dragged through the courts I am sure they will ask those informed experts to weigh in. **Smapti** did not deny, when directly questioned, that he didn’t really give a damn about government waste after all and his real hate boner is for Manning for political and now gender-identity reasons. ✓ I suspect Manning could be a paraplegic and the usual archaic law-and-vengeance types would be angry that he’d get a wheelchair. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/76 "2013-08-22T20:03:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I have nothing against transsexual people. Liar. > [@](#): > > I have a lot against people who say “It’s not my fault I committed treason, I’m a victim! Everyone feel sorry for me and stop talking about the serious crimes I committed!” Liar again. Nobody has said that, or anything like that. And even if they had, it wouldn’t be an excuse for your repeated attacks on Manning’s gender identity. > [@](#): > > People who call me a bigot aren’t bigots. People who say that you _must_ have to have been “born in the wrong body” if you want to live as another gender are bigots. This doesn’t make any fucking sense at all. > [@](#): > > Gunshots to the head are covered under the health insurance policy I carry. Have you ever made use of that coverage? It would explain a lot about you. > [@](#): > > This is the first time I’ve seen you dispute it. It’s been in the GD thread for about an hour and a half, now. Normally, I’d give someone the benefit of the doubt and assume they hadn’t seen it yet, but given your behavior to date, “Saw it and decided to lie about it,” seems the more likely conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/77 "2013-08-22T20:05:10Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > Pull your head out of your ass and understand that you’re talking to different people about different things. > > Bradley Manning was kept on suicide watch against the recommendation of his psychiatrists, who judged that he was not suicidal. ✓ > > … > > Transpersons collectively are at a higher risk for mortality in part because they kill themselves when they’re unhappy with their bodies and demeaned by society. ✓ So was he at risk of killing himself, or wasn’t he? Make up your mind. > [@](#): > > **Smapti** did not deny, when directly questioned, that he didn’t really give a damn about government waste after all and his real hate boner is for Manning for political and now gender-identity reasons. ✓ “Government waste” has never been my issue. I don’t care if keeping him on suicide watch day and night for the next 35 years costs some ridiculous order of magnitude more than giving him a sex change. Being a prisoner means he doesn’t _get_ to have what he wants. I frankly don’t care if he’s sad or depressed or “uncomfortable about his body” while he’s in prison. He’s in _prison_ - his comfort and self-actualization is the lowest priority. > [@](#): > > I suspect Manning could be a paraplegic and the usual archaic law-and-vengeance types would be angry that he’d get a wheelchair. We’re not talking about giving him a wheelchair, we’re talking about giving him cybernetic legs. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/78 "2013-08-22T20:06:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A transsexual is a person who wants to live as something other than the gender that they are. Biological sex =!= Gender. Gender is not assigned by biology they way sex is, it is more a psychosocial construct. Perhaps [this](http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf) from the American Psycholgical Association will better inform you: > [@](#): > > Definition of Terms > > _ **Sex** _ refers to a person’s biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia. > > _ **Gender** _ refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a person’s biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations constitute gender non-conformity. > > _ **Gender identity** _ refers to “one’s sense of oneself as male, female, or transgender” (American Psychological Association, 2006). When one’s gender identity and biological sex are not congruent, the individual may identify as transsexual or as another transgender category (cf. Gainor, 2000). > > _ **Gender expression** _ refers to the “…way in which a person acts to communicate gender within a given culture; for example, in terms of clothing, communication patterns and interests. A person’s gender expression may or may not be consistent with socially prescribed gender roles, and may or may not reflect his or her gender identity” (American Psychological Association, 2008, p. 28). ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/79 "2013-08-22T20:09:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I sincerely hope he won’t be a free man any earlier than 2038, and I doubt he has anything to contribute to society. _ **She** _ will be a free woman long before then and whenever it happens I sincerely hope you have reconsidered how you address her, seeing as continuing to call her “him” would be akin to continuing to call African-Americans the plausibly-deniable racial slur of your choice. And has already been said, thanks to others in this thread for saving me from the struggle of eloquence in my outrage. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/80 "2013-08-22T20:10:14Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Biological sex =!= Gender. Gender is not assigned by biology they way sex is, it is more a psychosocial construct. > > Perhaps [this](http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf) from the American Psycholgical Association will better inform you: …So a transsexual is someone who wants to live as something other than the sex that they are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873.md?page=5)