# Bradley Manning **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873 "2013-08-22T14:45:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/81 "2013-08-22T20:11:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > _ **She** _ will be a free woman long before then and whenever it happens I sincerely hope you have reconsidered how you address her, seeing as continuing to call her “him” would be akin to continuing to call African-Americans the plausibly-deniable racial slur of your choice. > > And has already been said, thanks to others in this thread for saving me from the struggle of eloquence in my outrage. When he’s a free man, I’ll call him Groucho Marx if that’s what he wants. He’s not a free man. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/82 "2013-08-22T20:15:43Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > So I just wanted to clarify this point. You angry self-righteous taxpayers in this thread, you’re just peachy with Manning getting an unprecedented sentence decades above that of actual torturers and murderers, which is clearly for show and to make an example of him, that will probably cost a million or more to have imprisoned him by the time he’s out? Keep in mind, he wasn’t tried in the normal Federal or state court systems, but in the military court system, which has different rules, sentences and procedure from normal civilian courts, not to mention its own separate legal code (UCMJ) His sentence may or may not be unusual for that system, but comparing it to a civilian court system and sentence isn’t really comparing apples to apples. I don’t give a damn about him otherwise; he sounds like he was a nut before he went into the Army, and they screwed up twice by letting him in, and then letting him near sensitive information. Nonetheless, he’s the one who actually committed the crime, so it’s his sentence to serve. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/83 "2013-08-22T20:17:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That makes no sense. Gender identity and sexual orientation are irrelevant to biological sex - if a person is biologically male, then they’re male, regardless of what they _wish_ they were. If I believe that I was meant to be born a tiger, it doesn’t make me a tiger. What makes no sense is your continued inability to understand the difference between biological sex and gender. \* No one is disputing that Manning is biologically male.\* It is you that is adamantly defining a person’s gender by biological sex - while stating that ‘gender identity and sexual orientation are irrelevant to biological sex.’ :dubious: It is obvious that you are confused. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/84 "2013-08-22T20:21:12Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > What makes no sense is your continued inability to understand the difference between biological sex and gender. \* No one is disputing that Manning is biologically male.\* It is you that is adamantly defining a person’s gender by biological sex - while stating that ‘gender identity and sexual orientation are irrelevant to biological sex.’ :dubious: > > It is obvious that you are confused. I understand the difference. I dispute that someone’s assertation of their psychosocial gender produces any obligation on the part of society to treat them as if their biological sex has changed. Someone saying they believe themselves to be female doesn’t mean they need to be housed in a female dorm and see a gynecologist every six months, it doesn’t mean they get to have their sex changed on their driver’s license, and it doesn’t mean that as a prisoner they’re entitled to medications and elective surgery in order to make them resemble the biological sex they’d prefer to be. Manning is male. Until 2038 when he’s released from prison, the Army is under no obligation to treat him otherwise simply because he wishes it were so. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/85 "2013-08-22T20:28:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t care if keeping him on suicide watch day and night for the next 35 years costs some ridiculous order of magnitude more than giving him a sex change. So, after admitting that the whole “surgery in prison” thing was bullshit you made up, here you are, bringing it up again. You basically have no standard of honesty at all, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/86 "2013-08-22T20:31:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, after admitting that the whole “surgery in prison” thing was bullshit you made up, here you are, bringing it up again. > > You basically have no standard of honesty at all, do you? Who said anything about surgery? ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/87 "2013-08-22T20:33:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …So a transsexual is someone who wants to live as something other than the sex that they are. It is living as the gender they identify with. Changing their actual sex chromosomes is not medically possible, while altering their hormones and anatomy is possible (to a limited extent). A transsexual is someone who alters their anatomy to be more congruent with their gender identity. Not all transgenders want to fully transition, either. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/88 "2013-08-22T20:35:54Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > It is living as the gender they identify with. Changing their actual sex chromosomes is not medically possible, while altering their hormones and anatomy is possible (to a limited extent). …Isn’t that what I’ve been saying all along? A man can believe himself to be female, and undergo surgery to make himself look more female, but that doesn’t cause him to become female and it doesn’t mean that he was retroactively always female. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/89 "2013-08-22T20:43:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I understand the difference. I dispute that someone’s assertation of their psychosocial gender produces any obligation on the part of society to treat them as if their biological sex has changed. Someone saying they believe themselves to be female doesn’t mean they need to be housed in a female dorm and see a gynecologist every six months, it doesn’t mean they get to have their sex changed on their driver’s license, and it doesn’t mean that as a prisoner they’re entitled to medications and elective surgery in order to make them resemble the biological sex they’d prefer to be. Actually … [Quote:] ([Transgender rights in the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States#Birth_certificates_and_marriage)) > [@](#): > > Almost all U.S. states permit the name and sex to be changed on a birth certificate, either through amending the existing birth certificate or by issuing a new one. Only Idaho, Ohio, Kansas, Tennessee, and Texas refuse to change the sex, though Texas will do so if a court order is presented. [Quote:] ([Transgender rights in the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States#Drivers.27_licenses)) > [@](#): > > All U.S. states allow the gender marker to be changed on a driver’s license, although the requirements for doing so vary by state. Often, the requirements for changing one’s driver’s license are less stringent than those for changing the marker on the birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/90 "2013-08-22T20:44:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I fail to see how anything I said there is bigoted. That is because you are stupid in addition to being hateful. > [@Smapti](#): > > A transsexual is a person who wants to live as something other than the gender that they are. Wrong. Trans persons are people who had their gender mis-identified at birth, and want to live as the gender they actually are. > [@Smapti](#): > > I understand the difference. I dispute that someone’s assertation of their psychosocial gender produces any obligation on the part of society to treat them as if their biological sex has changed. You dispute it because you are an asshole. > [@](#): > > Someone saying they believe themselves to be female doesn’t mean they need to be housed in a female dorm and see a gynecologist every six months, it doesn’t mean they get to have their sex changed on their driver’s license, and it doesn’t mean that as a prisoner they’re entitled to medications and elective surgery in order to make them resemble the biological sex they’d prefer to be. You are right that it doesn’t mean these things, but to non-bigoted persons, this is something wrong which ought to be fixed. To garbage such as yourself, the current state of affairs is an excuse to act like a shithead. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/91 "2013-08-22T20:47:48Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Actually … Well, that’s just bizarre and I have a serious problem with retroactively altering factual historical documents for matters of the subject’s personal comfort, and we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on that. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Wrong. Trans persons are people who had their gender mis-identified at birth, and want to live as the gender they actually are. A few posts ago I was told that sex is the biological aspect and gender is a psychosocial condition. Now you’re telling me that gender is something that can be identified at birth? ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/92 "2013-08-22T20:55:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …Isn’t that what I’ve been saying all along? A man can believe himself to be female, and undergo surgery to make himself look more female, but that doesn’t cause him to become female and it doesn’t mean that he was retroactively always female. Biological sex is defined by _sex chromosomes and anatomy_. Anatomy can be changed through hormones or surgery. Which is called _sex reassignment surgery_ (SRS). And, (legally) for the most part, once a person has transitioned they are considered to be the sex they transitioned too. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/93 "2013-08-22T20:59:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A few posts ago I was told that sex is the biological aspect and gender is a psychosocial condition. Now you’re telling me that gender is something that can be identified at birth? What is it about those two statements that confuses you? Is it the big words? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/94 "2013-08-22T20:59:58Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Biological sex is defined by _sex chromosomes and anatomy_. Anatomy can be changed through hormones or surgery. Which is called _sex reassignment surgery_ (SRS). And, (legally) for the most part, once a person has transitioned they are considered to be the sex they transitioned too. Once the surgery is complete I can acknowledge that. Saying that the act of changing sexes later in life retroactively changes your gender in the past is just silly, however. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/95 "2013-08-22T21:02:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What is it about those two statements that confuses you? Is it the big words? I’m being told on one side that gender is a psychosocial condition that isn’t associated with biological sex, and I’m being told on the other side that gender is something that can be identified with birth, which would have to mean it _is_ associated with biological sex. Either one of these statements is false, or both of them are false, or the people who are trying to explain this to me haven’t even got their terminology consistent yet. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/96 "2013-08-22T21:09:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So was he at risk of killing himself, or wasn’t he? Make up your mind. 0/10 > [@bump](#): > > Keep in mind, he wasn’t tried in the normal Federal or state court systems, but in the military court system, which has different rules, sentences and procedure from normal civilian courts, not to mention its own separate legal code (UCMJ) > > His sentence may or may not be unusual for that system, but comparing it to a civilian court system and sentence isn’t really comparing apples to apples. The sentence is unusually severe compared to all other prosecutions of leaks, including the ones that I could find in the military court system. It’s well-documented that the Obama administration has been more active in prosecuting leakers than all previous administrations. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/97 "2013-08-22T21:26:23Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > The sentence is unusually severe compared to all other prosecutions of leaks, including the ones that I could find in the military court system. Jonathan Pollard was convicted of one count of espionage and was sentenced to life in prison. Manning was found guilty of six counts of espionage, along with 13 other charges. Which cases, exactly, did you find? Because you couldn’t have looked hard at all. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/98 "2013-08-22T21:26:59Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > 0/10 > > The sentence is unusually severe compared to all other prosecutions of leaks, including the ones that I could find in the military court system. It’s well-documented that the Obama administration has been more active in prosecuting leakers than all previous administrations. It was an unusually large leak. When was the last time one person gave away 750,000 pages of classified documents? ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/99 "2013-08-22T21:37:01Z")
[Smapti](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puDeSE4aVaE) ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/100 "2013-08-22T21:47:22Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > This is a great opportunity for Conservatives to show how worthless they are as a whole, by using Manning’s crimes as an excuse to make bigoted, hateful, transphobic remarks. > > I mean, they’re not even pretending, really - they’re just looking for any opportunity they can to smear their vile hate all over the place. Saying “this” for the first time. This. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873.md?page=6)