# Bradley Manning **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873 "2013-08-22T14:45:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/141 "2013-08-25T21:03:17Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Last I checked, if I pay for it, it’s my business. If you want to refund every penny of Federal income tax I’ve ever paid, I’d be happy to give you a PO Box to mail it to. So any medical care anybody on welfare receives is subject to your approval? I did not know that. Does that apply to food stamps too? ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/142 "2013-08-25T21:26:50Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > So any medical care anybody on welfare receives is subject to your approval? I did not know that. > > Does that apply to food stamps too? Cutting off a body part is pretty hard to reverse. And there’s no guarantee that, EVEN IF Manning passed the years-long process of counseling, that he wouldn’t regret it 5 or 10 years later. I know a M-to-F trans who deeply regrets the surgery. And she passed the counseling with no problems. I have concern about an irreversible procedure being performed, with MY tax money, on someone who may regret the decision. I don’t see the problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/143 "2013-08-25T21:30:22Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Like I said, I don’t know what the exact law on this is, but if her doctors decide its the appropriate way to go, then they’ll do it over your objections. You can rant all you want, but don’t ever claim that just because YOU don’t like it and you pay taxes, its your business. Its not, medical decisions are business of the patient at the doctor regardless of what anyone else thinks. And if you don’t like that, you are free to leave Free to leave what/where? And $100 says Manning won’t pass the counseling. He’s in a very confused place as a person. He’s young, isn’t thinking his decisions through (as evidenced by leaking info, then hanging around in the US afterwards), and needs some quiet time to consider a lot of things. Hopefully prison will provide that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/144 "2013-08-25T21:47:44Z")
> [@](#): > > “You put him in this environment, this kind of hypermasculine environment, if you will, and with no supports and few coping skills, the pressure would have been difficult to say the least,” Capt. Michael Worsley, a clinical psychologist who treated Private Manning, said in court last week. I didn’t know Manning had been drafted. I thought he joined the military of his own free will. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/145 "2013-08-26T16:25:04Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Cutting off a body part is pretty hard to reverse. And there’s no guarantee that, EVEN IF Manning passed the years-long process of counseling, that he wouldn’t regret it 5 or 10 years later. Newsflash: People sometimes regret decisions! We’ll bring you this shocking story at 7! > [@get\_lives](#): > > And $100 says Manning won’t pass the counseling. He’s in a very confused place as a person. He’s young, isn’t thinking his decisions through (as evidenced by leaking info, then hanging around in the US afterwards), and needs some quiet time to consider a lot of things. > > Hopefully prison will provide that. This is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone advocating prison as a stable and quiet place to think. :rolleyes: Sure, I guess in between the shower beatings, dodging shivs during lunch, and running from the Aryan Nation in his hour-long exercise session at the yard, he can chat up with some non-rapey prison guards about the existentialism of what it means to be a man ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/146 "2013-08-26T20:28:42Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > This is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone advocating prison as a stable and quiet place to think. Not real well read, are you? [_Stone walls do not a prison make, Nor iron bars a cage. Minds peaceful and quiet take That for an hermitage._](http://www.bartleby.com/101/348.html) > [@](#): > > Sure, I guess in between the shower beatings, dodging shivs during lunch, and running from the Aryan Nation in his hour-long exercise session at the yard, he can chat up with some non-rapey prison guards about the existentialism of what it means to be a man And no doubt a good big dose of estrogen will assist him mightily in all of that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/147 "2013-08-26T20:41:27Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > This is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone advocating prison as a stable and quiet place to think. :rolleyes: Sure, I guess in between the shower beatings, dodging shivs during lunch, and running from the Aryan Nation in his hour-long exercise session at the yard, he can chat up with some non-rapey prison guards about the existentialism of what it means to be a man [I have it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=631030) [on good authority](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=681306&highlight=military+prison) that military prison doesn’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/148 "2013-08-26T20:55:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > “You put him in this environment, this kind of hypermasculine environment, if you will, and with no supports and few coping skills, the pressure would have been difficult to say the least,” Capt. Michael Worsley, a clinical psychologist who treated Private Manning, said in court last week. > > I didn’t know Manning had been drafted. I thought he joined the military of his own free will. > > Regards, > Shodan And anyone who describes the military intelligence branch as a “hypermasculine environment” has obviously never met anyone in MI. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/149 "2013-08-26T21:25:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Once again, who was it that was convicted of espionage that you are comparing Manning’s sentence to? I’d actually be interested in the answer to this as well. I’m struggling to think of examples. The famous Daniel Ellsberg was charged and tried–but received a mistrial, the government wasn’t looking to be lenient with him at all if they had obtained a conviction, though. I guess Thomas Drake leaked intelligence information recently, and charges against him were ultimately dismissed. Drake is materially different from Manning, though. Drake was a career intelligence officer with the NSA and basically an intelligence community professional. He knew exactly what his requirements were under the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act and he followed them. He had concerns about certain NSA programs and elevated those concerns through the appropriate channels. When this resulted in no activity to fix what he saw as illegal NSA activity, he started leaking information to a reporter. **However** , as an actual intelligence professional (instead of an unsophisticated simpleton such as Manning) he carefully checked everything he leaked to the reporter and made sure he was only releasing information that wasn’t classified. It wasn’t all publicly available (much of it fell in the category of unclassified internal documents that the public would have to FOIA to access…but would be unlikely to FOIA since they didn’t know it existed in the first place), he was careful to leak information that showed waste and abuses at the NSA without actually revealing classified information. This informed the public to a degree on what was going on, without compromising the law or his own integrity. When it all finally went down, they did confiscate Drake’s computers and documents, and charged him with illegally “retaining work documents” a mostly foolish charge that quickly shamed down through public outcry to a misdemeanor “misuse of government computer systems” which resulted in a slap on the wrist fine and unsupervised probation. But the differences between that scenario and Manning are basically already outlined and extremely obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/150 "2013-08-26T22:32:08Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’d actually be interested in the answer to this as well. I’m struggling to think of examples. The famous Daniel Ellsberg was charged and tried–but received a mistrial, the government wasn’t looking to be lenient with him at all if they had obtained a conviction, though. > > I guess Thomas Drake leaked intelligence information recently, and charges against him were ultimately dismissed. Drake is materially different from Manning, though. Drake was a career intelligence officer with the NSA and basically an intelligence community professional… There’s the case of [Samuel Loring Morison](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Loring_Morison), the GS-12 who leaked the spy satellite photos to Jane’s. He ended up getting two years on four counts. A District Court opinion for his case, _U.S. v. Morison_, 604 F. Supp. 655, (D. Md. 1985), may be found [here](http://capone.mtsu.edu/lburriss/morison.html). He never gave the photos to a foreign power. Instead, he gave them to Jane’s, as perhaps a welcome gift. (He was in the process of taking a job with them as a naval analyst.) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/151 "2013-08-26T23:52:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Not real well read, are you? > > [_Stone walls do not a prison make, > Nor iron bars a cage. > Minds peaceful and quiet take > That for an hermitage._](http://www.bartleby.com/101/348.html) And no doubt a good big dose of estrogen will assist him mightily in all of that. > > Regards, > Shodan You’re using poetry from 400 years ago as a serious advocacy of prison as a stable environment? :rolleyes: > [@Smapti](#): > > [I have it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=631030) [on good authority](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=681306&highlight=military+prison) that military prison doesn’t work that way. Is that what kind of prison he is going to for sure? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/152 "2013-08-27T00:31:22Z")
I’m not sure why he wouldn’t be going to a prison in the military corrections system, he was tried and sentenced in military court. Something unusual would have to go on I would think for him to end up elsewhere. With an initial sentence of 35 years, I’d actually suspect he’ll be going not only to a prison _like that_ but the exact prison discussed in that thread–since it is the prison where inmates with sentences over five years typically get sent in the military system. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/153 "2013-08-27T00:33:13Z")
Based on [this](http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-08-22/national/41435686_1_manning-all-male-prison-35-year-prison-sentence) article Manning is already at USDB Leavenworth and has already begun serving his sentences. Officials there have confirmed they do not offer the sort of treatment he desires, the prison there only houses males, and he would not be allowed to dress as a woman (i.e. wearing a bra or other female undergarments, using a wig to mimic long hair or etc.) ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/154 "2013-08-27T01:03:29Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Newsflash: People sometimes regret decisions! We’ll bring you this shocking story at 7! > > This is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone advocating prison as a stable and quiet place to think. :rolleyes: Sure, I guess in between the shower beatings, dodging shivs during lunch, and running from the Aryan Nation in his hour-long exercise session at the yard, he can chat up with some non-rapey prison guards about the existentialism of what it means to be a man So you think I should have no concerns about a man wanting to have his privates removed, even thought he’s obviously in a place in his life where he’s displaying poor decision-making? Is that your actual position? Feel free to correct my impression if you like. And as far as the prison situation, you’ve completely destroying your credibility on this subject. First off, you’re talking about military prisons, something you you _clearly_, _demonstrably_ know nothing about. (well, you know more now, but that’s irrelevant to my point.) Second, you assumed that all prisons and prison situations are the same, which proves you know almost nothing about civilian prisons EITHER. Dude. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/155 "2013-08-27T01:07:33Z")
Jail’s not so bad. You can make sangria in the terlet. Course, it’s shank or be shanked. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/156 "2013-08-27T16:11:04Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > So you think I should have no concerns about a man wanting to have his privates removed, even thought he’s obviously in a place in his life where he’s displaying poor decision-making? Is that your actual position? Feel free to correct my impression if you like. Sure, I’ll correct it. I think everybody should be concerned for this obviously very emotionally distraught young woman. I think jail’s not the best place to make such a decision, nor do I believe her decision was not affected just a little by the trial, imprisonment, and conviction. However, given all of that, I see pathetically little empathy from you for what is probably the hardest decision of her life. This should be something you and I and everyone else leaves alone, not to use it to humiliate and attack her, not as a bludgeon over the heads of people who believe in different government than you do, not as a political ploy for you to take advantage of. It is simply her decision along with her doctors to make, not yours, and you should entirely butt out. > [@get\_lives](#): > > And as far as the prison situation, you’ve completely destroying your credibility on this subject. First off, you’re talking about military prisons, something you you _clearly_, _demonstrably_ know nothing about. (well, you know more now, but that’s irrelevant to my point.) Second, you assumed that all prisons and prison situations are the same, which proves you know almost nothing about civilian prisons EITHER. Utterly irrelevant. We’re not discussing prisons, we’re discussing the public coming-out of a woman with a medical issue. It matters fuck all if know what the average rainfall of the Amazon basin is. I could believe prisons are run by robots from Mars and it still wouldn’t matter. This isn’t your decision, its not up to you, it doesn’t matter if you pay for a fraction of it, and its none of your business. You have absolutely zero right to veto this decision. You’re completely useless in the discussion and serve no purpose ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/157 "2013-08-27T18:28:47Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > So suddenly you DO understand the difference between sex and gender. Late responding to this… but since it’s been explained to me at this time, yes, I _do_ now acknowledge a difference between sex and gender. I still don’t think that Manning is in any position right now to demand that he be treated as a female, nor that he should receive any kind of hormone treatment on the taxpayer dime while incarcerated, or any level of treatment greater than what a broke uninsured person would receive if they wandered into an emergency room. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/158 "2013-08-27T18:31:33Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Utterly irrelevant. We’re not discussing prisons, we’re discussing the public coming-out of a woman with a medical issue. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Sure, I guess in between the shower beatings, dodging shivs during lunch, and running from the Aryan Nation in his hour-long exercise session at the yard, he can chat up with some non-rapey prison guards about the existentialism of what it means to be a man I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/159 "2013-08-27T19:56:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I see what you did there. No, you don’t. If you saw what he did there, you’d have figured out that he was asking about two different issues in those posts, and you wouldn’t have embarrassed yourself (further) by attempting to show them as somehow contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873/160 "2013-08-27T23:53:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I still don’t think that Manning is in any position right now to demand that he be treated as a female, nor that he should receive any kind of hormone treatment on the taxpayer dime while incarcerated, or any level of treatment greater than what a broke uninsured person would receive if they wandered into an emergency room. The news articles that I’ve read recently all state that Manning is **not** demanding treatment on the taxpayer dime. She is willing to pay her own way to get hormone treatment while incarcerated. She is making no demands for SRS, and does not expect to be transferred to a women’s prison. She understands that she will serve her time in Leavenworth and that the prison system’s administration will identify her as male (e.g. mail addressed to her will have to be addressed to Bradley Manning). She is requesting that the media and others respect her request to be addressed as Chelsea Manning. Several people in this thread seem like they were making the argument that they only objected to the taxpayers funding her transition surgery or hormone treatments (some were ok with paying for counselling, but not medical treatment). So if the “not with my tax money” argument is irrelevant, do these posters have any objection to her receiving hormone treatment and counselling in prison? IMHO, anyone who objects to that is unlikely to have a rationale that boils down to not being based on transphobic bigotry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bradley-manning/666873.md?page=9)