# Brady Campaign gives Obama an 'F' for gun control **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731 "2010-01-20T19:18:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/81 "2010-01-22T17:16:22Z")
> [@OccamsTaser](#): > > Ummm ok. > > And the partisans in Yugoslavia, the Baathists in Iraq, the Mujahideen of Afghanistan… all just “half-assed citizen militias” who gave modern, well-trained, and efficient militaries an enormous amount of grief. > > Sorry Diogenes, that argument is just patently false. Recent history is ripe with examples of relatively poorly-armed irregulars organized into highly-effective guerilla forces. Combine the notion of a well-armed citizenry with the fact that many of these half-assed militias will have a core group of ex-military veterans with combat experience, an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the standing army, as well as counter-insurgency and MOUT, and it makes for an intimidating force that no wise military commander would be inclined to treat lightly. > > The real “fantasy” here is your idea that, when the shit hits the proverbial fan, these militias are going to be composed of right-wing neo-nazi bubbas who get off on running around the woods in hunting gear. I contend that these peace time militia movements will be very quickly marginalized and replaced by a group of “regular guys” who have reluctantly taken up arms against a government they once loved. None of those are examples of anyone actually conquering and subduing the invading state, just being enough of a nuisance to make them leave. I’d sure love to watch those neo-nazi bubbas try, though. ---
**Author:** ![OccamsTaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@OccamsTaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OccamsTaser)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/82 "2010-01-22T17:17:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is the biggest fallacy about the 2nd Amendment – that it gives citizens some kind of check on the State. It gives them nothing of the kind. And I should add that this statement shows a glaring ignorance of the political thought at the time when the 2nd Amendment was conceived and penned. There is no shortage of writing on the subject which details the founding father’s intent that the 2nd Amendment is indeed meant to be a “check on the State”. This is undeniable fact. Whether you believe it will _work_ is an entirely separate argument. The intent is that a well-armed citizenry is meant to be a _threat_ threat to the tyrant - not to establish a citizen force that will be stronger than the standing army, thus making any insurrection a foregone conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/83 "2010-01-22T17:17:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Are they going to get tanks? Apache helicopters? UAVs? Satellite systems? Missiles? Is the US military really going to use those weapons against insurgents located in the US? Those things are fantastic for open field battles and destroying infrastructure. Wiping out an entire neighborhood to nail a single insurgent doesn’t play well in Baghdad, how do you think it’ll play in Denver? ---
**Author:** ![OccamsTaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@OccamsTaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OccamsTaser)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/84 "2010-01-22T17:18:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > None of those are examples of anyone actually conquering and subduing the invading state, just being enough of a nuisance to make them leave. Thank you for making my point. Victory for an insurgent force _is_ making them leave. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/85 "2010-01-22T17:20:43Z")
You got a cousin in the Army, you shoot him? Gonna be tough to explain to Aunt Esther. Make Thanksgiving pretty awkward. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/86 "2010-01-22T17:24:49Z")
> [@OccamsTaser](#): > > And I should add that this statement shows a glaring ignorance of the political thought at the time when the 2nd Amendment was conceived and penned. There is no shortage of writing on the subject which details the founding father’s intent that the 2nd Amendment is indeed meant to be a “check on the State”. This is undeniable fact. Whether you believe it will _work_ is an entirely separate argument. The intent is that a well-armed citizenry is meant to be a _threat_ threat to the tyrant - not to establish a citizen force that will be stronger than the standing army, thus making any insurrection a foregone conclusion. I don’t care what the _intent_ was. I wasn’t commenting on that. I was only saying it’s a meth pipe fantasy that citizens with deer rifles are any kind of threat to the US Government. What are the citizens going to do? Try to shoot Congress? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/87 "2010-01-22T17:28:38Z")
> [@OccamsTaser](#): > > Thank you for making my point. Victory for an insurgent force _is_ making them leave. We aren’t talking about an invasion scenario. We’re talking about actually trying to overthrow the US Government. Ain’t gonna happen. Bugs on a windshield. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/88 "2010-01-22T17:31:31Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Is the US military really going to use those weapons against insurgents located in the US? Those things are fantastic for open field battles and destroying infrastructure. Wiping out an entire neighborhood to nail a single insurgent doesn’t play well in Baghdad, how do you think it’ll play in Denver? Why would they give a shit if they’re already a “tyrant?” What kind of namby pamby, publicity conscious tyrant do you guys think you’d be fighting? Stalin didn’t stop to ask how things would “play.” Have tyrants all gotten soft now? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/89 "2010-01-22T17:32:42Z")
Wait, I saw that movie! The American Patriot lifts up his .30-.30 and yells “Smithereens!” No,wait, that’s not it, its an animal… “Badgers!” No, definitely not, we don’t need no stinking badgers… “Armadillos!” Well, that’s right out, isn’t it… ---
**Author:** ![OccamsTaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@OccamsTaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OccamsTaser)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/90 "2010-01-22T17:36:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t care what the _intent_ was. I wasn’t commenting on that. I was only saying it’s a meth pipe fantasy that citizens with deer rifles are any kind of threat to the US Government. What are the citizens going to do? Try to shoot Congress? They’re a far greater threat than citizens without deer rifles are. What they’re going to do is make it a lot more dangerous for the government to send agents, police, troops, whatever, to drag you out of you bed in the dead of night because you exercised your right to free speech on your blog. But of course that would _never_ happen right? I can’t think of a modern industrialized nation (China) where an unarmed citizenry isn’t free to express dissent on a blog, print a pamphlet, etc… Can’t happen here are some famous last words. Just ask a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/91 "2010-01-22T17:49:08Z")
If it did happen, some Jethros with deer rifles wouldn’t slow them down any. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/92 "2010-01-22T18:33:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If it did happen, some Jethros with deer rifles wouldn’t slow them down any. Which is why it should be legal for citizens to own select-fire assault rifles. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/93 "2010-01-22T19:02:40Z")
That wouldn’t do them any good against Predator drones. ---
**Author:** ![OccamsTaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@OccamsTaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OccamsTaser)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/94 "2010-01-22T19:09:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If it did happen, some Jethros with deer rifles wouldn’t slow them down any. Someone who’s served in the military, or has an even modest knowledge of military history, knows this not to be true. One man with a bolt-action deer rifle can disrupt or render combat-ineffective, a much larger, and much better equipped force. In the VietNam war, single snipers pinned-down NVA regular units as large as company and battalion size. A good marksmen, who knows the area he’s operating in, and has a modicum of fieldcraft (say for instance, one of your “Jethros” who’s spent his entire life hunting and walking the land he’s now fighting on) can have an effect far out of proportion to his number. He may be unsophisticated by your standards, but the last time I checked, an MA in Philosophy wasn’t listed among the requisite qualifications for becoming an insurgent sniper. Alvin York and Carlos Hathcock were unsophisticated Southern “Jethros” who, with nothing more than a bolt-action rifle had a staggering impact, out of all proportion, on the well-armed regulars they engaged. You’re assertion that you need tanks and helicopters to fight tanks and helicopters. This isn’t so. Asymmetrical warfare is being successfully waged in several areas of the world, as I write this post. You ignore military history if you think that any sort of wide-spread popular insurrection would be forced to rely solely on WalMart dear rifles for any length of time. Heavier weaponry would be seized by the guerillas on the battlefield, and interested foreign actors would, more likely than not, supply heavy arms to the insurgency (interference strategy and war profiteering aren’t strictly right-wing American concepts). This happened during the Revolution, the ACW, the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, the Balkans, OIF, OEF, and just about every other conflict of this nature in recent history. But getting back to the source of “our little side debate”. I asserted that the 2nd Amendment was the teeth that secures our other rights. You asserted it was not. If it is not, then what does secure our rights? In an extreme situation, where your rights are violently stripped away from you by an oppressive and tyranical government, how would you reassert your rights and take back control of your own freedom, sans the use of arms? I’m not being snarky here. Would you hunker down and wait for, say the UN, to come and intervene? Are you suggesting a passive response versus an active one? If you have no right to free speech, no right to assembly, no right to a fair trial, how do you resist? Or, do you resist at all? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/95 "2010-01-22T19:11:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If it did happen, some Jethros with deer rifles wouldn’t slow them down any. There is no difference between a modern “deer rifle” and a sniper rifle. A scope-sighted high powered rifle is a scope sighted high powered rifle. Not that it really matters. A properly conducted insurgency isn’t “militia” members trying to defeat the standing army in the field, anyway. That’s stupid and virtually always results in dead irregular forces. No, a properly run insurgency involves things like assassination of the local and state officials who carry out the will of the tyrant. It involves kidnappping. It involves sabotage. In short, it doesn’t have much at all to do with trying to face down a mechanized army with a “deer rifle.” But you knew that before you posted. ---
**Author:** ![OccamsTaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@OccamsTaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OccamsTaser)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/96 "2010-01-22T19:22:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That wouldn’t do them any good against Predator drones. A well-placed shot to the head of the pilot who flies the drone would be very disheartening to his comrades. In an insurgency in the US, there will be no front lines. A guerilla force’s opportunities to disrupt military operations would be near limitless. Even if they were piloted from bases outside the US, they still have to be deployed, maintained, fueled, and armed, right here “in theater”. The guerillas may not be able to shoot one down with their deer rifle, but they certainly could plant an IED on the base where the UAV’s are operating from. I say again, asymmetric warfare. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/97 "2010-01-22T19:25:01Z")
If that’s the case, then we agree that the weapons are useless. They would have no combat utility at all. Can you cite an example of a superpower ever being overthrown by an insurgency. Has sneaking around, murdering a few local officials ever resulted in the fall of a superpower? I don’t think so. > [@OccamsTaser](#): > > But getting back to the source of “our little side debate”. I asserted that the 2nd Amendment was the teeth that secures our other rights. You asserted it was not. If it is not, then what does secure our rights? Nothing. Your rights are only as secure as your government allows them to be. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/98 "2010-01-22T19:28:58Z")
> [@OccamsTaser](#): > > A well-placed shot to the head of the pilot who flies the drone would be very disheartening to his comrades. You don’t know much about the military, do you? For one thing, drones don’t have pilots, they are unmanned aircraft. For another thing, fallen commrades don’t dishearten US military personel. It just pisses them off and brings down ten times the shitstorm. > [@](#): > > In an insurgency in the US, there will be no front lines. A guerilla force’s opportunities to disrupt military operations would be near limitless. Actually they would be pretty much non-existent since all the military installations are already fully secured. ---
**Author:** ![OccamsTaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@OccamsTaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OccamsTaser)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/99 "2010-01-22T19:48:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Can you cite an example of a superpower ever being overthrown by an insurgency. That’s not the argument. The argument is a tyrant government being driven from power by an armed insurgency, and that has happened plenty of times. British citizens threw out their tyrannical colonial government via armed insurgency in North America a few hundred years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731/100 "2010-01-22T19:51:46Z")
When the “tyrant government” is a superpower, it isn’t going anywhere. They aren’t messing around tring to fight off villagers with pitchforks. They push a button and the town disappears. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brady-campaign-gives-obama-an-f-for-gun-control/525731.md?page=6)