# Brain-damaged baby to be taken off life support - I have questions about this news story **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 28, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743 "2010-01-28T06:43:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/41 "2010-01-29T02:50:42Z")
> [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](#): > > \ > Perhaps that can even be used as a Republican talking point: In America the hospital will take your baby off life support against your wishes right away, in Canada they make you wait 6 months. The parents are fighting against the hospital because the hospital/doctors have recommended removing their baby from life support immediately due to his prognosis of having no chance to survive. The court has granted the parents three weeks to get another opinion on the future of their baby. The cost of any of this really isn’t a factor; the parents are arguing that they want a second opinion from someone outside the hospital, and the courts have granted this request. I think they’re grasping at straws, but the court has acquiesced, probably so that the parents can rest knowing they did all they could do. And yes, doctors are in pretty short supply here. From the Texas story link: > [@](#): > > “We mourn the death of Emilio Gonzales,” Michael Regier, senior vice president of legal services for the Seton Family of Hospitals, said in a brief statement. “We pray that in the days and weeks to come, Emilio’s mother and family will be comforted by God’s loving presence and by the knowledge that Emilio’s earthly suffering is now ended.” Wow. An official would not say something like that here. No way, no how. ETA: Not relevant to the thread - it just struck me again the differences between here and there. ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/42 "2010-01-29T03:05:56Z")
[QUOTE=AnnieXmas] Let’s see We’re both unemployed. If we take the kid off life support, we’ll get X amount from the hospital. But if we keep it alive, we can get 21X or more for expenses relating to keeping the kid alive for years. [/QUOTE] Wow, AnnieXmas, are you always this mean? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/43 "2010-01-29T03:15:25Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > A hospital in [Texas](http://cbs11tv.com/local/emilio.gonzales.leigh.2.502625.html) tried. In that case state law allowed them to terminate care for patients deemed “futile” over the family’s objection with 10 days notice. You’re talking about the Advance Directives Law where doctors intervene on behalf of the patient. The process involves a review board which includes members of the family. Upon conclusion of the board there is a 10 day waiting period for legal injunctions. There have been a number of cases including children born only with a brain stem. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/44 "2010-01-29T03:20:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Unless I’m reading this wrong it means Canadian doctors are in short supply and if even a couple of them take the afternoon off it will negatively affect health care. There’s always a finite number of doctors, especially specialists. Also, if they need to go to Edmonton from, say, Vancouver or Toronto, it’s going to be a hell of a lot longer than an afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_First_Time)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/45 "2010-01-29T04:01:55Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > A hospital in [Texas](http://cbs11tv.com/local/emilio.gonzales.leigh.2.502625.html) tried. In that case state law allowed them to terminate care for patients deemed “futile” over the family’s objection with 10 days notice. Thanks alphaboi , the Texas case was the one I was thinking of. ---
**Author:** ![truthbot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@truthbot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthbot)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/46 "2010-01-29T04:10:54Z")
I’m going to put Annie-Xmas’ comment aside. Because I don’t understand it; and I hope she was having an off-day. Let me preface by stating I have always had a fear of suffocation and drowning. To me, they are the two worst forms of death available. I’m going to give out two examples of people-that-should-have-had-the-plug-pulled-and-didn’t. 1. [BBC NEWS | Americas | US man wakes from 19-year coma](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3052433.stm) This person was not mentally deficient, retarded or what-ever the PC term is. And his case is from 2003. Granted. Let’s move on. 1. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34109227/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34109227/) I realize this second case has its’ detractors, but consider that a person in a _chronic vegatative state could possibly be aware of their surroundings_ for 23 years. I side with the parents on this one. The child could be profoundly retarded, could require life-long care, most likely be a burden on society. But, to me; pulling the respirator is akin to putting a pillow over their face and suffocating them. Personally, I couldn’t do that to another life form, let alone a human being. For the record, I have a profoundly retarded brother with Aspergers’ and Autism, who is now 44 and thriving. I also have a step-daughter who is 45, born with bizarre congenital deformities and little in the way of intellect. She thrives in her own way, and I enjoy her company when she stays with us. I can attest that even low-functioning persons have a personality, and are aware of their surroundings. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/47 "2010-01-29T04:52:12Z")
> [@truthbot](#): > > I can attest that even low-functioning persons have a personality, and are aware of their surroundings. A good friend’s baby was born prematurely in 1990. She could breathe on her own, but for the 16 years she lived, that’s all she could do. She was blind and deaf and had to be fed through a shunt. But she reacted positively to sunlight and snuggling (big smiles and burrowing). It’s hard not to believe that someone was “there”. ---
**Author:** ![zoogirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b9bd4f/32.png) [@zoogirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoogirl)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/48 "2010-01-29T05:08:59Z")
I’m a little curious about what sort of testing has been done and what criteria is being used in the decision to terminate life-support. When my son was born in '84, he was so severly damaged during delivery that he was on a vent from about eight hours of age. He was a breech delivery, buttocks first, and there was a hemmorage into the brain. We were advised to have him taken off LS severl times but each time testing showed minimal brainwaves that were above the level that would legally permit termination of support. He eventually passed on his own at six months. Now, in Johnny’s case, he really didn’t move much and couldn’t breathe on his own, track, suck, cry or grasp very well. It sounds like this baby has a higher level of movement, at least. If Johnny was “over the limit”, I’m really surprised the child in the story isn’t. BTW, I lived in the Vancouver area. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/49 "2010-01-29T05:09:48Z")
I was hoping a baby doctor would chime in. How common is it to deliver a baby with the cord wrapped around it’s neck and not be aware of it? And 4 hours of pushing? There should be medals for that. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/50 "2010-01-29T05:10:10Z")
> [@truthbot](#): > > I’m going to give out two examples of people-that-should-have-had-the-plug-pulled-and-didn’t. > > 1. [BBC NEWS | Americas | US man wakes from 19-year coma](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3052433.stm) > > This person was not mentally deficient, retarded or what-ever the PC term is. And his case is from 2003. Granted. This person was not in a persistent vegetive state. It is known that such people recover occasionally. sometimes to full functionality, sometimes to just brief awareness. But most important, this person was a fully functioning adult injured in an accident; they had had the ability to collect experiences and knowledge before the coma, and hence had something to “return” to – a very different case from a baby incapable of learning or experiencing in the first place. > [@truthbot](#): > > 1. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34109227/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34109227/) > > I realize this second case has its’ detractors, but consider that a person in a _chronic vegatative state could possibly be aware of their surroundings_ for 23 years. And count me as a detractor on this one. There’s only ONE PERSON who can “interpret” movements no one else can feel as the conscious speech of a man who’s brain doesn’t register higher consciousness on standard scans? I take it back—I’m not a mere detractor: I’m going to outright state this is fraud. If they can provide real evidence, I’ll be the first to eat my words, but I won’t have a choice because it will be on the front page of every paper everywhere. Why? Because to the best of my knowledge, the total number of people who have ever come back from a persistant vegative state is, and I’m not rounding here: zero. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/51 "2010-01-29T05:57:17Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Let’s see We’re both unemployed. If we take the kid off life support, we’ll get X amount from the hospital. But if we keep it alive, we can get 21X or more for expenses relating to keeping the kid alive for years. What the hell brought this on? > [@Meyer6](#): > > To me, this is the real issue: > > So, unless I’m reading that wrong, they’re asking doctors to stop caring for other children so that they can go to Edmonton and look after the baby. I understand the need for medical professionals to give consults, but I can also see doctors and hospital officials feeling that the skills of those professionals would be better used elsewhere, in cases where there was a better chance of a positive outcome. > > These parents may be putting the lives of other children at risk in a blind effort to save a life that is ultimately unsavable. To be fair, they might not be thinking very rationally right now. I’d cut them some slack. ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/52 "2010-01-29T07:18:23Z")
> [@C3](#): > > Also, keep in mind that they need your consent to do a c-section and to do internal fetal monitoring. The doctor can tell you that you need a c-section Right This Second, but if you’re conscious, they can’t cut you open without your permission (or some sort of court order, I imagine). It’s possible that they were recommending a c-section earlier in the labor and she just didn’t give consent. I think it must depend on the jurisdiction – when my youngest child was delivered by emergency c, nobody asked me anything and it was mere minutes between the time everything went to shit and the time he was breathing air. It was quite amazing how fast it went. But they had consent for eveything I could imagine and quite a few things I could not beforehand. I am fairly sure my husband signed further consent forms as the c section was occurring (he was rather freaked out and doesn’t remember very well what he signed but I assume that is what it was). However, that was a large metropolitan hospital locally known as the baby factory. Not the sam esituation. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/53 "2010-01-29T09:49:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I was watching a story awhile ago about extremely premature babies, and one mother of a preemie said that if she had been told properly about what kind of life her preemie would have (severely multihandicapped), she would never have agreed to extreme measures to save her baby’s life. She of course didn’t want her baby to die, but she also admitted that she wouldn’t have chosen a life of looking after a severely multihandicapped child. You make me wonder if these parents have thought past, “We don’t want our baby to die.” Exactly. Some profoundly disabled kids are relatively easy to care for. But the odds indicate that most profoundly disabled kids are very difficult to take care of. It’s NOT about “accepting their disabilty” or wanting a healthy normal kid (and in cases like these Welcome to Holland is very much reality) We are talking about kids who are profoundly deaf and blind, eat through tubes in their stomach, breathe through tracheostomies, and may not even be able to smile or hold their head up. There are even kids who are so profoundly affected they don’t even know who their parents are! Heck, there are even kids who are so profoundly affected they are pretty much vegetables. I feel for the parents. I really do. But I’m just wondering if they have a realistic idea (or any idea) of how difficult the child’s life will be. One downside of the disabilty rights/ inclusion movement is that while MANY of us with disabilites can and do acheive, it negates the fact that there are still children and people who are extremely profoundly handicapped by any stretch of the imagination. ---
**Author:** ![ColdPhoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@ColdPhoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ColdPhoenix)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/54 "2010-01-29T10:12:53Z")
A similar thing happened 10 months ago to a girl I know. The umbilical cord wrapped around the baby’s neck during birth and it is now brain damaged. Not as badly as in this story but he’s approaching a year old and is still unable to lift up his own head. Very sad. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/55 "2010-01-29T17:00:27Z")
The two stories linked are interesting, but there’s a reason that they became news stories - those are not typical outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/56 "2010-01-29T17:54:37Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > To be fair, they might not be thinking very rationally right now. I’d cut them some slack. Yeah, fair enough. But it was their lawyer who said that - I know lawyers can be scummy, but I’m kind of surprised that one would word the request that way: “drop everything and come see this baby!”. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/57 "2010-01-29T18:06:18Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > What if she were conscious but not completely there? Would the husband have been able to give consent? If mom was in distress and for whatever reason unable to give meaningful consent, Implied consent is still an option. > **[Implied consent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_consent)** > > Implied consent is consent which is not expressly granted by a person, but rather implicitly granted by a person's actions and the facts and circumstances of a particular situation (or in some cases, by a person's silence or inaction). For example, if a person is unconscious as a result of injuries sustained during a traffic collision, medical treatment may be provided to that person, despite the unconscious person being unable to expressly grant consent for that treatment. > All U.S. states have... ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/58 "2010-01-29T19:37:54Z")
WRT medical consent, I can’t speak specifically to the OB end of the hospital, but when I was dealing with oncology, I couldn’t get in the building without a check-in process that included reviewing my insurance and signing consent forms. The consent forms were pretty general, pretty much just saying “Yes, I agree that you are allowed to give me medical treatment.” The forms did **not** just delineate a specific treatment, e.g. that they were only allowed to do blood labs and a PET scan that day. This is also in the US, not Canada, but I have a hard time imagining that she was able to get into the hospital without signing those forms, short of it being an actual emergency by the time she got there. Or that she or her husband would need to sign an additional consent form to cover the c-section, in addition to the one she signed to have the medically-attended labor/delivery. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/59 "2010-01-29T19:53:16Z")
I read the “drop everything” comment differently. > [@](#): > > Rosanna Saccomani, the couple’s lawyer, said finding medical experts outside Edmonton has been difficult. > > “They are world-renowned and they have demands on their schedules. They have other children they’re in charge for their care. They’ve got surgeries to perform so we’re asking them to drop everything to pay attention to this case.” I think she’s saying they’re trying to get a second opinion, but the doctors they’re asking are busy, and they understand they’re asking the docs to drop everything, which is why they’re having the difficulty. StG ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743/60 "2010-01-29T20:16:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I was hoping a baby doctor would chime in. How common is it to deliver a baby with the cord wrapped around it’s neck and not be aware of it? And 4 hours of pushing? There should be medals for that. Having a cord around the baby’s neck is pretty common. There is only so much room in there and it is going to be squished up someplace. It is not usually dangerous. My son’s cord was wrapped around his neck and we did not know until he was being born - his head was out and the Dr. told me to stop pushing while she unwrapped it. (an exercise in self-control if I do say so myself.) Without other signs of fetal distress I would think most of the time you would not know where the cord is. If the heart rate was dropping a monitor would be able to warn of that. There are other complications involved with the cord: [http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,5332,00.html](http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,5332,00.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brain-damaged-baby-to-be-taken-off-life-support-i-have-questions-about-this-news-story/526743.md?page=4)