# Brainglutton, I am so tired of your BS **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669 "2007-11-08T17:12:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/441 "2007-11-15T17:22:31Z")
[QUOTE=Nancarrow] I can’t be bothered to actually work it out, so I’ll just tentatively point out that we _could_ be dealing with a convergent series rather than a perpetual motion machine, here. (/memories of trying to consider how much fuel a rocket needed, back when I was about twelve, and thinking 'but if you add the fuel, you’ll need MORE fuel to get that fuel up in the air, and then you’ll need EVEN MORE fuel to get the extra fuel up. This was some time before I did convergent series at school…) [/QUOTE] And on further reflection it appears to me that, yes indeedy, provided the rate of income tax is less than 100%, it is perfectly possible for someone to pay your taxes… and the taxes on their gift… and the taxes on the taxes… and so on. So, no perpetual motion machine. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/442 "2007-11-15T17:45:10Z")
[QUOTE=Nancarrow] And on further reflection it appears to me that, yes indeedy, provided the rate of income tax is less than 100%, it is perfectly possible for someone to pay your taxes… and the taxes on their gift… and the taxes on the taxes… and so on. So, no perpetual motion machine. [/QUOTE] Sure. Let’s say **Lib** has $100 income, which **askeptic** is going to pay 20% tax on for him. **askeptic** should give **Lib** $25. Total income is 125, 25 paid in taxes, 100 left. It’s really only simple algebra. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/443 "2007-11-15T17:55:30Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Sure. Let’s say **Lib** has $100 income, which **askeptic** is going to pay 20% tax on for him. **askeptic** should give **Lib** $25. Total income is 125, 25 paid in taxes, 100 left. It’s really only simple algebra. [/QUOTE] See [Can someone else pay your taxes?](http://www.slate.com/id/2134674/) (discussing the Richard Hatch case, explaining the tax on payment of income tax problem and its solution). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/444 "2007-11-15T17:57:37Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Sure. Let’s say **Lib** has $100 income, which **askeptic** is going to pay 20% tax on for him. **askeptic** should give **Lib** $25. Total income is 125, 25 paid in taxes, 100 left. It’s really only simple algebra. [/QUOTE] But I have to pay taxes on the $25 he gave me, so he’ll have to pay me that. And then I’ll have to pay taxes on that. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/445 "2007-11-15T17:57:40Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] How can you pay my taxes? The money I get from you to pay them would be considered income and would itself be taxed. You’d have to overpay to the extent that what remains from your gift, after taxes, would equal the taxes I’ve paid on both my income and your gift. I’m no engineer, but it sounds like a perpetual motion machine to me. [/QUOTE] Exactly! Which is why it’s not only _better_ to travel hopefully than to arrive, it’s _necessary_: Zeno showed that you could never get there. This is simply an application of Zeno to taxation, and is therefore equally true. 😉 Antelope Freeway, 1/64 mile. Antelope Freeway, 1/128 mile. Antelope Freeway, 1/256 mile… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/446 "2007-11-15T17:57:44Z")
I’m still trying to figure out how Warren Buffett’s plan for his wealth is substantively different than **askeptic** ’s plan for Buffett’s wealth. All I can gather is that Buffett giving away $37 billion = no problem, but **askeptic** giving $39.5 billion away = requires magic. **askeptic** , I suppose you’ll have to keep two and a half billion as opposed to a couple hundred million. I hope that doesn’t impact your partying like a sober rock star plans. And as to the question of whether a person could ever pay someone else’s taxes, I present [Achilles and the tortise.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradox#Achilles_and_the_tortoise) It works better as metaphor than it does as an unsolvable math problem, mostly because it is solvable. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/447 "2007-11-15T18:00:23Z")
Ah, Mr. Firefly, great minds simulpost. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/448 "2007-11-15T18:01:36Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] But I have to pay taxes on the $25 he gave me, so he’ll have to pay me that. And then I’ll have to pay taxes on that. And so on. [/QUOTE] Stop and think about it, **Liberal**. If he gives you $25, he is paying twenty on your hundred and five on his twenty-five. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/449 "2007-11-15T18:06:58Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] I’m still trying to figure out how Warren Buffett’s plan for his wealth is substantively different than **askeptic** ’s plan for Buffett’s wealth. All I can gather is that Buffett giving away $37 billion = no problem, but **askeptic** giving $39.5 billion away = requires magic. [/QUOTE] Well, we covered that. Buffett isn’t giving away $37 billion. Dollars are currency. He’s giving away $37 billion worth of assets. > [@Frank](#): > > Stop and think about it, Liberal. If he gives you $25, he is paying twenty on your hundred and five on his twenty-five. I see, you’re right guys. It’s a geometric series. Sorry about that. Of course, he’s giving me $37 billion. That’s dollars, not assets. > [@Elucidator](#): > > No doubt, when Jesus talked about it being as difficult for a rich man to enter Heaven as a camel passing through a needle’s eye, he was bemoaning the needless size of camels and the meagre dimensions of needles eyes! Jesus is nice. You’re not. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/450 "2007-11-15T18:11:29Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Well, we covered that. Buffett isn’t giving away $37 billion. Dollars are currency. He’s giving away $37 billion worth of assets. I see, you’re right guys. It’s a geometric series. Sorry about that. Of course, he’s giving me $37 billion. That’s dollars, not assets. Jesus is nice. You’re not. [/QUOTE] I think my board could figure out how to convert currency to assets…wait a minute you would be on it…maybe not. The currency/assets wiggle is stupider than I gave you credit for. You’re off the board. Lekatt is on. No I am not talking about a board made of wood. Just so you’re clear. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/451 "2007-11-15T18:32:35Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Hey. There are sober rock stars. [/QUOTE] :eek: Can’t they, like, get in trouble for that?! ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/452 "2007-11-15T18:35:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] :eek: Can’t they, like, get in trouble for that?! [/QUOTE] Maybe, but you just fill a Jack Daniels bottle with iced tea and nobody will know. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/453 "2007-11-15T19:13:46Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] There is no difference between property rights and human rights. Humans own themselves. [/QUOTE] Now that’s just plain dumb. Go learn something about law, and then come back with pie. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/454 "2007-11-15T19:24:08Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] Now that’s just plain dumb. Go learn something about law, and then come back with pie. [/QUOTE] candyman, **Candyman,** _CANDYMAN!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/455 "2007-11-15T19:27:00Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] Now that’s just plain dumb. Go learn something about law, and then come back with pie. [/QUOTE] I wasn’t talking about law; I was talking about ethics. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/456 "2007-11-15T19:41:33Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] Ah, Mr. Firefly, great minds simulpost. [/QUOTE] So we did. The Achilles and the Tortoise form of the paradox is the more precise equivalent, though. :tips hat: ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/457 "2007-11-15T19:54:48Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] It’s really only simple algebra. [/QUOTE] News to me. Since when has algebra been “simple”? :dubious: Then again, while math in general (minus geometry, which came quite easily to me) always stuck in my craw, my son just breezes through it – taking as he is, two college level courses in calculus and trig. Beats the hell out of me when he tries to explain the stuff to me. OTOH, he’s always joshing me that he needs a dictionary around when speaking to me regardless of the language we use to communicate in (English mostly). So I guess it’s different strokes for different folks. Appreciate your lucid reply though. * * * The point I was trying to make in my prior posts (which **'luc** elucidated on) was and is that to **some of us** , “envy” has jack-all to do with trying to build a more socially and economically balanced society. Which doesn’t mean (and I speak only for myself now) that there won’t be different economic levels and/or social classes, but rather that most people will be given the opportunity to develop their talents and ambitions to their fullest. Whether they are content with getting by or want to reach for the stars is up to each individual. Meaning that just because you’re born in the ghetto in the lottery of life, you shouldn’t be condemned to remain there without necessarily being the exception to the rule. Oh and BTW, **Lib** , I might not be part of The Beautiful People, but am also far from a pauper myself. Born with the proverbial silver spoon was I – it’s gotten a little rusty since, but that’s mostly due to the fact that I’m not into, if you’ll pardon the expression, jerking-off to my bank account. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/458 "2007-11-15T20:07:59Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I wasn’t talking about law; I was talking about ethics. [/QUOTE] That’s even dumber. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/459 "2007-11-15T20:43:20Z")
Nitpick: That’s the Antelope _Valley_ freeway. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669/460 "2007-11-15T21:31:36Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] How can you pay my taxes? The money I get from you to pay them would be considered income and would itself be taxed. You’d have to overpay to the extent that what remains from your gift, after taxes, would equal the taxes I’ve paid on both my income and your gift. I’m no engineer, but it sounds like a perpetual motion machine to me. [/QUOTE] The donor would simply take the diminishing recursion into consideration before determining the size of the gift. So the simple answer to your question “How can you pay my taxes?” is “By cheque.” If you find the repeated taxation of the same income as it passes from donor to donee offensive, then simply change your tax laws to eliminate gift taxes under certain situations. There is nothing fixed in stone that says that a government must have a gift tax. I realize that the USA generally has a gift tax, but up here in the Great Socialist Kanukistan we do not have a gift tax in most circumstances (there being exceptions for the gift triggering of capital gains in which the tax on the gain has not been paid over the years, and for gifts from employers in which the employers want to deduct the gifts from their pre-tax income). Our theory is that personal income should only be taxed once as income, so once a person has paid their income tax, that person is free to give away their after-tax income without any further income tax ramifications for either the donor or donee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brainglutton-i-am-so-tired-of-your-bs/425669.md?page=24)