# Brake By Wire Technology **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 14, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372 "2005-04-14T23:08:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/1 "2005-04-14T23:08:31Z")
[If this becomes commonplace, I _will **not** _ ride/drive in a passenger car again.](http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Apr05/ML0427.html) > [@](#): > > AFRL and the National Center for Industrial Competitiveness concluded an innovative, 2-year Cooperative Research and Development Agreement that enabled an automotive systems supplier to use technology developed for military aircraft to design, construct, and successfully demonstrate a commercially viable brake-by-wire (BBW) system for next-generation automobiles. The technical insight gained from this collaborative effort not only enables Delphi Automotive Systems, of Dayton, Ohio, to compete globally in the development of hybrid and full-electric BBW design options, but also facilitates an AFRL/Delphi follow-on partnership to pursue design and development of a reduced-cost, high-performance, electromechanical braking system for unmanned air vehicles (UAV). Not to sound like a Luddite, but _every_ car I’ve owned that’s been loaded down with tons of fancy electronic doodads has developed all kinds of intermittent and annoying electrical problems, which either mechanics are helpless to repair, or will cost more than the value of the car to fix. Admittedly, I tend to have rather bad luck with cars, but everyone I know who has a new car, also ends up having the same kinds of problems sooner or later. I know why they want to do this, they want to reduce the weight of the car by cutting out the hydraulic system weight, but this just isn’t an area where you want to play around with. I had the “joy” of losing all my brakes on a busy street during rush hour. Damn near got killed before I could pull the car over and get it stopped. This crap makes it into automobiles and _a lot_ of people are going to get killed because of it. Mark my words. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/2 "2005-04-14T23:35:44Z")
I’m a little surprised they’re putting that kind of effort into developing brake-by-wire systems for hybrids and full-electric vehicles. I thought the real design goal for those was to use regenerative braking; turn the electric motor into a generator and recover energy, instead of losing it all to heat. Maybe the BBW-and-calipers are meant as a backup in case the regenerative fails. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/3 "2005-04-15T00:08:43Z")
Regenerative braking does not produce sufficient braking for quick or panic stops. Neither will it keep a vehicle stationary on a slope. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/4 "2005-04-15T01:39:57Z")
Interesting… I’m not sure how this will play in the market. My car has a FBW accelerator. I don’t like it. Every now and then, the engine will stumble a bit under acceleration or desceleration (downshifts). It’s a brief stumble, but I find it highly annoying. Having the break system do the same is going to be downright unsettling. Also, if power brakes fail, you can still stop the car by standing on the peddal. I wonder how they will ensure you can still stop if the FBW brake system goes out. Redundant FBW systems would be my guess. ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/5 "2005-04-15T01:52:32Z")
Something to consider. Many of the current F1 race cars use BBW. Many Airbus aircraft and the new Boeing 787 have or will use electric instead of hydaulic braking. Military aircraft have used it for years. And there were cars sold as late as the early 60’s that used mechanical instead of hydraulic brakes. In the 30’s, many folks did not trust “juice” braking and would not buy cars that had it. In 10 to 20 years it will become so common place folks will wonder how cars ever stopped with the old hydraulic technology. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/6 "2005-04-15T02:02:13Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > Something to consider. Many of the current F1 race cars use BBW. Many Airbus aircraft and the new Boeing 787 have or will use electric instead of hydaulic braking. Military aircraft have used it for years. And there were cars sold as late as the early 60’s that used mechanical instead of hydraulic brakes. In the 30’s, many folks did not trust “juice” braking and would not buy cars that had it. In 10 to 20 years it will become so common place folks will wonder how cars ever stopped with the old hydraulic technology. Problem is that F1 cars and aircraft are constantly being worked on and inspected, and the repairs to them are being paid by large corporations with deep pockets, not by individual consumers who are going to have to eat the cost of repairs themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Medea\_s\_Child](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Medea\_s\_Child](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Medea_s_Child)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/7 "2005-04-15T12:41:29Z")
Want to know what is truly scary? Microsoft is bidding on the programming work for drive by wire. Other than that little tidbit - I’m willing to give it a chance as cool stuff. ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/8 "2005-04-15T13:19:06Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Problem is that F1 cars and aircraft are constantly being worked on and inspected, and the repairs to them are being paid by large corporations with deep pockets, not by individual consumers who are going to have to eat the cost of repairs themselves. The exact same thing was said about hydraulic brakes in the 30’s. Early Chevrolets required that the brakes be bled every 1000 miles or 30 days. Once it becomes a commonplace technology, we will think nothing of it. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/9 "2005-04-15T14:41:16Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > The exact same thing was said about hydraulic brakes in the 30’s. Early Chevrolets required that the brakes be bled every 1000 miles or 30 days. Once it becomes a commonplace technology, we will think nothing of it. Even mechanical brakes back then needed adjustments at the same interval, so it’s not like they were adding a serious amount of routine maintience back then, and if they can’t figure out how to keep a factory installed radio from shorting out after just a couple of years (as has happened with a number of my friends who have late model cars), how the bloody hell are they going to keep the brakes from shorting out? Especially when you consider that the wiring and electric motors for the braking system are going to be exposed to far harsher conditions than an in-dash radio. I’m _not_ saying that it can’t be done, only that the fumbleheaded engineers at the automakers aren’t going to be able to get it right. Hell, air ride suspensions have been around since the 1950s, but take a look at the ass end of Lincolns that are around a decade old or so. It’s not uncommon to see them sagging or cocked at some weird angle, and speaking from experience I can tell you that’s caused by the wiring going haywire, not a failure of the air bags in the suspension. **QuickSilver** ’s described the problems with his throttle-by-wire system (and _no_ pilot would put up with that kind of crap) in his car, they can’t get that right, obviously, so I’m supposed to think that they’re going to be able to do better on the braking system? Sorry, I’m not buying it. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/10 "2005-04-15T14:55:54Z")
> [@Medea's Child](#): > > Want to know what is truly scary? Microsoft is bidding on the programming work for drive by wire. > > Other than that little tidbit - I’m willing to give it a chance as cool stuff. you’re far more generous than me then, the instant m$ produces software for critical automotive systems will be the day i stop purchasing new vehicles and only stay with pre-m$ vehicle systems m$ car software is almost as bad as the old ford Nucleon prototype car, you can’t tell me that the idea of the ford motor company (motto; only _some_ of our cars burn up) building a _NUCLEAR REACTOR_ doesn’t fill you with sheer, unrelenting terror (MacTech sees a horrible scene in his mind of the nations highways riddled with tiny mushroom clouds as the ford nuke reactors achieve uncontrolled critical mass) i suppose it could be worse, they could have actually developed the Nucleon powerplant, and in their infinite “wisdom”, put it in the chassis… of the Pinto… 😉 so, put the Nucleon power plant in the car and have it controlled by m$ car software, and you have a disaster waiting to happen… only a matter of time… sorry, i’m rambling again, carry on… ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/11 "2005-04-15T15:35:38Z")
A: I don’t like it, either. (Remember, one of my hats is automotive in nature.) B: There damn well _will_ be a backup system that is hydraulic in nature. Even if it’s E-Brake only. C: When it works, it works really well, and assists the reactive/semi-active/active suspension in ways you can’t imagine. If you thought stability control was good before, you ain’t seen _nothin’_ yet. D: Stability control has been shown, unexpectedly, to seriously cut down in accidents, unlike anti-lock brakes, which have not. E: It comes in really handy for regenerative braking, too, as you have much finer control when blipping the brakes on and off. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/12 "2005-04-15T15:57:05Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > D: Stability control has been shown, unexpectedly, to seriously cut down in accidents, unlike anti-lock brakes, which have not. That’s the first positive comment I’ve seen on stability control. Most of the reviews I’ve seen of it generally stop short of Godwinizing themselves, but just barely, in their description of what they think about stabilitity control. (I have read a few positive comments about it in regards to SUVs, though even those were backhanded in nature.) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/13 "2005-04-16T03:34:47Z")
I suppose you’d like a [cite](http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/tw/esp.htm) for that, Tuckerfan, am I right? It’s not as much _fun_, and it’s not good for the involved or ‘semi-pro’ driver, but for Joe Commuter? It’ll save his ass in the wet. Long as you can turn it off, it’s all good. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/14 "2005-04-16T04:04:12Z")
Well, that wasn’t necessary, but thanks. It’s interesting. I’m not so sure about turning it off, though. _Car & Driver_ reviewed a car, I think it was one of the 'Vettes, and said that even in the “off” position it _sucked._ I _like_ to feel what all the components in the car are doing when I’m driving, and not having some computer tell me what it thinks I want to feel. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/15 "2005-04-16T04:39:04Z")
I don’t think Formula One allows brake-by-wire these days - perhaps they did in the early 90’s? Other series of racing might allow it, but F1 seems to require (relatively) low-tech braking systems. A summary, with text of the relevant rules, may be seen [here](http://www.formula1.com/insight/rulesandregs/14/482.html), at [formula1.com](http://www.formula1.com). Current F1 braking systems, per the linked page, must be hydraulic, and must have dual circuits split front/rear for safety. Power boost and ABS are specifically banned. My understanding is that such limitations in these and many other systems on those cars are motivated by both safety and cost. Whether or not it’s ultimately good for the sport is a debate all of its own. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/16 "2005-04-16T05:09:16Z")
> [@Medea's Child](#): > > Want to know what is truly scary? Microsoft is bidding on the programming work for drive by wire. “Your brakes are not responding and will be shut down. Do you wish to send an error report to 911? SEND DON’T SEND” ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/17 "2005-04-16T13:18:28Z")
Oh, it wasn’t necessary. But the statistics are _amazing_. 24 percent! 30+ percent! ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/18 "2005-04-17T06:18:50Z")
[Here’s a somewhat related story which indicates that this might be a really bad idea.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151071,00.html) > [@](#): > > Police officers were skeptical when a woman whose car had struck a neighbor’s home told them the car took off on its own after she must have accidentally hit some buttons on her key chain. > > Christine Djordjevic said the officers became believers when they saw her remote starter activate, sending her car driving down the road. They chased it down and stopped it from hitting anything, she said. > > Police reports confirmed the vehicle “was checked and it was learned that the vehicle will start and drive when the remote start is activated.” There’s supposed to be an interlock which prevents the car from starting when it’s not in either Park or Neutral, but apparently, that’s not working, or the car’s slipping out of gear while the engine’s running. Judging by these comments > [@](#): > > To prevent any further problems, Djordjevic said she was taking the remote starter device off her key chain. > > “I don’t even know how the stupid thing works,” she said. Apparently, no one she knows has enough of an understanding about cars to know that the problem is _not_ with the remote starter, but in the tranny. If we’ve got people who can’t understand simple things like key fobs and starter interlocks (and apparently there’s bunches of folks who don’t grasp the interlock feature) what makes us think that they’re going to be able to accurately ascertain that their electronic brakes need fixing _now_? (And, really, basic car repairs ought to be a requirement for getting one’s driver’s license, IMHO.) ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/19 "2005-04-17T06:33:30Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > There’s supposed to be an interlock which prevents the car from starting when it’s not in either Park or Neutral, but apparently, that’s not working, or the car’s slipping out of gear while the engine’s running. The car in the link had a manual transmission. If it did have a clutch interlock, it was likely disabled if the car was equipped with an aftermarket remote start system. You can’t really fault anyone but the installer for that one. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372/20 "2005-04-17T06:43:30Z")
> [@Berkut](#): > > The car in the link had a manual transmission. If it did have a clutch interlock, it was likely disabled if the car was equipped with an aftermarket remote start system. You can’t really fault anyone but the installer for that one. Except we don’t know if it was an aftermarket job or not, and given that the installer was stupid enough screw up the install on something as simple as a remote starter, then they’re probably going to screw up any number things while trying to install something. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brake-by-wire-technology/299372.md?page=2)