# Brandeis University considers 'picnic' to be oppressive language **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 25, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016 "2021-06-25T19:26:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/321 "2021-06-29T13:48:14Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Because it’s fucking happened to them, that’s why. You keep quoting the fucking 80% statistic. Prove that it keeps fucking happening to them. I say it doesn’t. > [@kevlaw](#): > > Keep repeating that it’s because we watch too much Murdoch and I’ll keep denying it. I read The Guardian. You read the OP article, right? That was from the Washington Examiner. They’re not part of the Murdoch Empire, but that’s why I said “Fox and friends”: the interlocking, self-reinforcing conservative outrage machine is bigger than Murdoch, even if he’s the largest cog. As for “Keep repeating that I’m afraid of voter fraud and hordes of immigrants and I’ll keep denying it. It’s not true,” I can’t keep repeating something I never said. Don’t take it so personally, dude. I’m talking about broader cultural trends, talking about the bullshit stat DemonTree keeps quoting. > [@Omniscient](#): > > when it comes to managing the product lifecycle and go-to-market this kind of change costs literally tens of millions of dollars in a large organization like mine. I have a hard time believing this. Can you link to anything supporting these numbers? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/322 "2021-06-29T13:49:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Can we not do two things at once? Can we be good at not falling for right-wing bullshit while also trying to make less unforced errors? Missing the point, it also includes that realistic molehill errors are turned by the right into mountain errors. What is needed is to also realize that there are tons of ~~mountain rock~~ context omitted by the right that some centrists, and people from the left too, are missing. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/323 "2021-06-29T13:51:37Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Speaking as one who manages a software product, and has many engineers making this kind of change now Snap, me too. I’m a former software engineer (and I still get my hands dirty sometimes) turned product owner. I understand technical debt, the point is, this form of debt is pervasive to all software development. Commands get deprecated or renamed all the time, do you dispute this? > [@Omniscient](#): > > It requires a coordinated retraining of an entire workforce, completely new style guides which need constant diligence to enforce, lots of QA and bugfix cycles It’s this a joke? Come on now. If this were not hyperbole then no software development would be possible, period, as we’d all freak out every time an API or framework renamed anything. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/324 "2021-06-29T13:52:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Missing the point, it also includes that realistic molehill errors are turned by the right into mountain errors. What is needed is to also realize that there are tons of ~~Mountain rock~~ context omitted by the right that some centrists, and people from the left too, that are missing. I realize you’re not making this personal, but it’s comments like this that make the left look arrogant because it assumes everyone who disagrees is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/325 "2021-06-29T13:52:55Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I realize you’re not making this personal, but it’s comments like this that make the left look arrogant because it assumes everyone who disagrees is stupid. Nope, just some centrists and some leftists being a bit ignorant. You should know that there is a difference between stupid and ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/326 "2021-06-29T13:53:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, just being a bit ignorant, there is a difference you know. Yeah. That’s much better. 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/327 "2021-06-29T13:55:59Z")
And, as always, I’ll point out the incredible hypocrisy from the right. On the one hand, we’ve got a tiny student group at a small university giving a list of words that they think _might_ be problematic for some people, and the outrage machine is losing their everloving shit over it. On the other hand, we have [Nicole Hannah-Jones being denied tenure](https://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/article251747573.html#storylink=hpdigest_opinion) because of her views, by a major university system that underwent a conservative takeover in the last decade. But the right-wingers are silent. And we have [Gwen Berry facing threats by a sitting US Congressman to be expelled from the Olympics for her statements](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2021/06/29/gwen-berry-dan-crenshaw/?itid=hp-more-top-stories), and the right-wingers are silent. This isn’t remotely about fears of “political correctness.” If it were, the career-ending threats from powerful Republicans would be the subject of these threads. It’s about the conservative outrage machine. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/328 "2021-06-29T13:58:59Z")
Here’s a very well written article (opinion piece) that someone shared with me recently. It will probably go over like a lead balloon, but for those interested in this conversation, I think it’s a worthwhile (recommended?) read: > **[the Iron Law of Institutions and the left](https://medium.com/@jesse.singal/the-iron-law-of-institutions-and-the-left-333c42c246af)** > > By Freddie deBoer \* The article is about more than just campus activism so I recommend people read all of it for context. But here is a small section that is most relevant to the OP: > Take campus activism. Campus activism can be a site of a lot of really important work. But campus activism has really powerful constraints, too. For one, it’s seasonal: college politics are deeply constrained by the cycle of summer, spring, and winter breaks. Momentum is constantly lost as students head out to Cabo or back home to Virginia. What’s more, college students are constantly cycling in and out thanks to graduation, making it hard to build durable groups or have consistent leadership. Most uncomfortably, college campuses in the United States have a class composition that is not in keeping with typical left priorities. When Middlebury College students protested Charles Murray violently, many leftists nominated them as the vanguard of today’s left movement. But this is a curious attitude, given that more students at Middlebury come from families in the top 1% by income than from the bottom 60%. That’s not a reason to dismiss them entirely, of course. But it is a condition that we have to ask serious questions about. When I’ve tried to ask such questions in left spaces, it’s been very unpopular, to say the least. Yet I’ve simply been making a core left-wing point: class matters. > > In recent years, a dogged, no-exceptions, don’t-ask-any-questions attitude towards campus activists has taken over the radical left, to the extent where college student organizers are expected to go entirely uncriticized in left spaces. That hurts our movement, but because criticizing college students risks losing status within the left movement, lefties are afraid to do so. That’s the Iron Law of Institutions for you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/329 "2021-06-29T14:02:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver quoting Jesse Singal quoting Freddie deBoer](#): > > In recent years, a dogged, no-exceptions, don’t-ask-any-questions attitude towards campus activists has taken over the radical left, to the extent where college student organizers are expected to go entirely uncriticized in left spaces. That hurts our movement, but because criticizing college students risks losing status within the left movement, lefties are afraid to do so. That’s the Iron Law of Institutions for you. Interesting–I have been in left spaces for the last thirty years, and have never encountered this attitude. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/330 "2021-06-29T14:04:32Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > I have no idea of DemonTree’s politics but I was gob-smacked at the ire that he stirred up with (what seemed to me) very reasonable and moderate arguments. If we can’t have this discussion politely among ourselves then we deserve all of those Daily Mail articles about the Looney Left. I cancelled my Labour party membership a few months ago. I’m feeling pretty disaffected by politics right now. I see the left abandoning liberal values like free speech, equality under the law, due process, and toleration, and I just can’t support it any more. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/331 "2021-06-29T14:06:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Interesting–I have been in left spaces for the last thirty years, and have never encountered this attitude. I will have to say that what she observed about activism being seasonal and changing undermines the idea that we should be looking at those student seasonal movements as important. Or that they should define what all the left movements should be or are about. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/332 "2021-06-29T14:09:07Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I will have to say that what she observed about activism being seasonal and changing undermines the idea that we should be looking at those student seasonal movements as important. Or that they should define what all the left movements should be or are about. Indeed–as far as I’m concerned, campus activism is primarily a place for young people to learn how to interact with social institutions. They’ll make mistakes, they’ll overreach or underreach, they’ll piss people off, but it’s fundamentally a learning space. Perhaps there are corners of the world where it’s regarded as central to activism. But not in my corner of the activist world. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/333 "2021-06-29T14:09:34Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I understand technical debt, the point is, this form of debt is pervasive to all software development. Commands get deprecated or renamed all the time, do you dispute this? It’s not technical debt in any parlance I’m familiar with. It’s a proscribed change. It’s comparable to rebranding a feature, and in some cases it’s literally rebranding a feature. That is net-new work, not debt. > [@Mijin](#): > > It’s this a joke? Come on now. > If this were not hyperbole then no software development would be possible, period, as we’d all freak out every time an API or framework renamed anything. Not a joke or exaggerated. We have an entire department dedicated to this. We have close to 2000 product teams and sales offices in 90+ countries which need to be aligned around this. In most cases each product team works independently on their products and introduces their own features and nomenclature. It’s rare that we have a corporate mandate from standards and practices that requires uniformity across the entire org which is why it’s hard and expensive. It also created a new gate for every software release. Your analogy with a framework or API version is off the mark. We’re not worried about what under the covers, we’re worried about what the customers see and how we communicate it. Writing the code is the simple part, this is bureaucracy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/334 "2021-06-29T14:13:18Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Not a joke or exaggerated. Again, I would love to see a cite that it’s costing any single organization at least $20 million (the absolute low end of your claim). Edit: just saw this: > [@Omniscient](#): > > That would put me in deep trouble with legal. So, no. I’m not asking you to give us your own internal numbers. If this is really the problem you claim it is, surely there’s a tech article written somewhere on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/335 "2021-06-29T14:13:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Can you link to anything supporting these numbers? That would put me in deep trouble with legal. So, no. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/336 "2021-06-29T14:13:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Interesting–I have been in left spaces for the last thirty years, and have never encountered this attitude. I can’t speak to your experience or the author’s, but it’s easy to see in this very thread how the PARC students are being defended by many participants in this thread. Until their position became inconvenient or embarrassing. Then the move is to trivialize and dismiss them as merely students making mistakes. QED: > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I will have to say that what she observed about activism being seasonal and changing undermines the idea that we should be looking at those student seasonal movements as important. Or that they should define what all the left movements should be or are about. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed–as far as I’m concerned, campus activism is primarily a place for young people to learn how to interact with social institutions. They’ll make mistakes, they’ll overreach or underreach, they’ll piss people off, but it’s fundamentally a learning space. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/337 "2021-06-29T14:14:51Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Your analogy with a framework or API version is off the mark. We’re not worried about what under the covers, we’re worried about what the customers see and how we communicate it. Writing the code is the simple part, this is bureaucracy. Actually, what I have seen is that customers usually don’t see the code inside. What I have also seen is that code that works already is usually left alone in past systems and it is for new machines or systems were the changes are made. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/338 "2021-06-29T14:16:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I can’t speak to your experience or the author’s, but it’s easy to see in this very thread how the PARC students are being defended by many participants in this thread. The quoted claim is that there’s a “dogged, take-no-prisoners” attitude about how they can’t be criticized. As proof of that, you cite my trivializing and dismissing them as students making mistakes? Buh? You’re wrong in this case. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/339 "2021-06-29T14:20:00Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I can’t speak to your experience or the author’s, but it’s easy to see in this very thread how the PARC students are being defended by many participants in this thread. > > Until their position became inconvenient or embarrassing. Then the move is to trivialize and dismiss them as merely students making mistakes. What @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness said. It is also not trivial to point at a critic’s own undermining of their argument. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2021, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/340 "2021-06-29T14:20:48Z")
I did not mean to imply that you refrained from criticizing these students or their suggested list of offensive language. Others did defend them, however. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016.md?page=18)