# Brandy, you’re a fine girl. But when did you live? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [July 15, 2024, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235 "2024-07-15T00:42:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/81 "2024-07-15T15:28:00Z")
Or with two “ees.” 😁 [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/s__Ea5lcNns/hqdefault.jpg "Cheers Clips: Brandee with two E's") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__Ea5lcNns) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/82 "2024-07-15T15:32:16Z")
This starts to become one of those linguistic debates. Yes if someone was considering a city as a geometric object by area then they would think that the city center has nothing to do with the function of the city, with where the trains and roads head into, where the shopping and or business center of masses are. They would think of that area near Madison and Western maybe as the city center. Most of us don’t think about cities as geometric objects by area. You do apparently. But it is not correct either prescriptively or descriptively. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/83 "2024-07-15T15:39:55Z")
It was in the days of mighty sailing ships when the north of Spain was as exotic to most of the world as “the Orient” was to Americans. Coincidentally, Barry Manilow also had written a song about “Brandy” but after the success of this song he changed the name of the girl to Mandy. Also, I was born in Chicago and we lived on the South Side. Even the people east of Calumet said “South Side” not “East Side.” ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/84 "2024-07-15T15:43:07Z")
So, the East side of (the central part of) Chicago would be downtown/the Loop? (Or Grant Park?) Sorry for going on with this hijack. Call whatever parts of any location whatever you wish. Just don’t expect anyone else to clearly understand what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanubv.2/32/3260_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUBv.2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUBv.2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/85 "2024-07-15T15:44:36Z")
I loved that movie. In it, the" something" they were throwing off the bridge was the girl’s stuffed toy, ‘Benjamin’. Back on topic, I always pictured it to take place in more or less contemporary times and since the only Western port I was familiar with at the time was San Pedro,CA., that’s where my mind’s eye went. Back then, SP felt kind of locked in the past, so it was pretty easy to picture Brandy walking around Ports o’ Call. Also, she was wearing a long skirt, peasant blouse, and a scarf on her head. The sailor’s name was engraved on the back of the locket. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/86 "2024-07-15T16:00:23Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > So, the East side of (the central part of) Chicago would be downtown/the Loop? (Or Grant Park?) Daddy was a cop protecting The Bean… ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/87 "2024-07-15T16:03:44Z")
I don’t - and I don’t dispute that someone who knows Chicago would never refer to “the East side” . What I don’t understand is why the response to people who clearly don’t know Chicago is often "there is no east side " rather than “we don’t call it that” . Because there’s no reason to think that someone who doesn’t know the city even knows where the city center is. Interestingly, when I went to look up which song referred to the east side of Chicago, I found [this](https://www.chicagomag.com/city-life/yes-chicago-really-has-an-east-side/) so it seems there is some disagreement even in Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/88 "2024-07-15T16:08:12Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Interestingly, when I went to look up which song referred to the east side of Chicago, I found [this](https://www.chicagomag.com/city-life/yes-chicago-really-has-an-east-side/) so it seems there is some disagreement even in Chicago. Or ya coulda just read post 49 upthread… 😉 Quite a while back I decided that it wasn’t my place to try to explain to folk who lived elsewhere than I, how THEY ought to refer to THEIR location. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/89 "2024-07-15T16:24:02Z")
The “sides” of a city are always relative to the center of the city, and for most cities on a coast, the center is usually very close to the coast. Therefore, such cities don’t, in fact, have a coastward “side”. As to how one defines the “center” of a city, it’s difficult to give a general standard, but the inhabitants of any given city will usually be able to pin down a specific point. For Cleveland, for instance, it’s the center of Public Square, where Superior and Ontario intersect. Often, this point will be the origin of the city’s address coordinate system, though that’s an effect of it being the center, not the cause. I don’t know what the precise center of Chicago is, but I’m sure Chicagoans do, and it’s probably pretty close to Lake Michigan. ---
**Author:** ![XOldiesJock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ec9cab/32.png) [@XOldiesJock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XOldiesJock)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/90 "2024-07-15T16:27:34Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > _Coincidentally, Barry Manilow also had written a song about “Brandy” but after the success of this song he changed the name of the girl to Mandy._ “Brandy,” the song on which “Mandy” was based, was written by Scott English and Richard Kerr. Recorded by English, it was a minor hit in the UK in 1971 and barely charted in the US. However, you’re correct that when Manilow recorded the song, the title and words were changed to “Mandy” to avoid confusion with the tune by the Looking Glass. English had an especially grating voice and I remember hearing English’s version but didn’t like it at all. At least Manilow could sing! It’s one of his better recordings, actually, before he worked that overproduced sound to death, over and over again. English supposedly hated the Manilow version but warmed up to it when he began getting the royalty checks. He probably lived quite comfortably for years off that song, thanks to Mr. Manilow. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/91 "2024-07-15T16:27:57Z")
Hmm. I feel like there’s not a unique “center” to either Boston or New York. I mean, New York has central Park. But there’s a sense in which downtown is the center, too. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/92 "2024-07-15T16:32:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The “sides” of a city are always relative to the center of the city, Pittsburgh has a Southside, a North Side, an East End and West End. If you want to have an enjoyable day, check out the Southside. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/93 "2024-07-15T17:16:54Z")
Going thru the (supposed) lyrics some things I find curious. “But he made it clear he couldn’t stay The harbor was his home” What? He can’t stay at his home? That can’t be right. Checking around there is “No harbor was his home.” Great, just great. Thanks Google. So going with Genius but still wary. “She could feel the ocean fall and rise, she saw its raging glory” So, on an ocean, with tides. And an area with apparently notable storms. Upper US Pacific coasts fits. Lakes, the Mediterranean, etc. don’t. By the 70s containerization was already a major thing. This changed the way ports worked and what the areas around many ports were like. This song just doesn’t seem to fit the container era. So 1950s or earlier. How much earlier? Probably many decades. While “Brandy” wasn’t a common woman’s name in the early 1900s or before, it was a name. The Wikipedia [article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandy_(given_name)) on the name also mentions it’s historic use as a pet name, e.g., for “Brenda”. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/94 "2024-07-15T17:30:51Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Quite a while back I decided that it wasn’t my place to try to explain to folk who lived elsewhere than I, how THEY ought to refer to THEIR location. Good grief, I’m from Chicago and I have no problem with people using the directional term to describe the relative position of a location, regardless of whether there’s a neighborhood called that or not. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/95 "2024-07-15T17:35:39Z")
I don’t believe the evocative lyrics “wears a braided chain made of finest silver from the north of Spain, a locket that bears the name of the man that Brandy loved” would have been put there if they weren’t intended to refer to an earlier time. The fact that he used the modern name Brandy was already explained as being because he was writing about a real girl named Randi, so he chose a name that was close. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/96 "2024-07-15T17:43:04Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > When was the last time you saw a bunch of drunken sailors ordering wine? I’ve seen plenty of sailors drunk on hard liquor and beer but I can’t recall ever seeing any sailor at any bar I ever went to ordering wine. They might if they’re from France, Spain, Italy, Malta, Greece, Slovakia… Anyway, “whiskey and wine” sounds better than “whiskey and beer” or “whiskey and rum” just because they both start with “w.” It also implies that Brandy works at a place slightly upscale from your average dockside dive, and she’s a “good girl” rather than a harbor tramp. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/97 "2024-07-15T17:56:39Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Good grief, I’m from Chicago and I have no problem with people using the directional term to describe the relative position of a location, regardless of whether there’s a neighborhood called that or not. Good grief that has nothing to do with what is being discussed, silly hijack that it may be: the phrase “the east side of Chicago” as a location. Of course we talk about going east til your hat floats and the lake is always east, so on. We are more clearly laid on the grid than many other cities. Use of direction relative to somewhere else immaterial. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/98 "2024-07-15T18:09:47Z")
When I was listening to the radio in the 70’s Brandi was a contemporary barmaid who served the sailors whiskey and rye. Maybe from Maine or Mass. she was prettier than average but restrained by a strict Catholic upbringing. She’s still at the bar owns it now and still wears her silver locket. ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/99 "2024-07-15T18:17:58Z")
In the eras before water was safe to drink many people drank wine with their meals. I can visualize sailors having a bit of wine with a meal then ordering whiskeys for the evening. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235/100 "2024-07-15T18:21:02Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > I don’t believe the evocative lyrics “wears a braided chain made of finest silver from the north of Spain, a locket that bears the name of the man that Brandy loved” would have been put there if they weren’t intended to refer to an earlier time. How does that refer to an earlier time, though? Spain is still around, it still has a north coast, and you can still buy jewelry there. And going to Europe and buying some tatty necklace to impress a girl back home is still a common practice. If anything, it seems to peg it to a more modern era, since back in the 17th/18th centuries, “silver from Spain” was an actual luxury, that I’d assume would be beyond the purchasing power of most sailors. > [@needscoffee](#): > > The fact that he used the modern name Brandy was already explained as being because he was writing about a real girl named Randi, so he chose a name that was close. The fact that he wrote the song about a woman he actually knew seems to rule out the 17th/18th centuries as settings for this song. And, anyway, “Randi” doesn’t sound any less modern to my ear than “Brandy”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandy-you-re-a-fine-girl-but-when-did-you-live/1004235.md?page=6)