# Brasil 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 6, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840 "2014-05-06T21:19:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 94
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1861 "2014-06-27T12:22:13Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Yeah, to some people world class means a world best 11 type player. To others it means they could play in any league in the world. The US doesn’t have the former, but I think Donovan, Dempsey, several of the GKs, and going back a bit, perhaps John O’Brien or Claudio Reyna, at their peak, fit the latter. > > Messi or Ronaldo are a ridiculous bar for world class though. They’re both in the top 20 players to ever live. Messi in the top 5, probably. If he’s the bar, Germany has never had a world class player. I thought Reyna was a magnificent little player. He seemed to do ok in England, but I think he was better than his stature of clubs suggests. I do think he would have at least been an excellent squad player at the very highest level of club football. I remember him at Rangers. There really wasn’t a heck of a lot of difference in quality between Reyna and Giovanni Van Bronckhurst. Van Bronckhurst went on to become a regular at Barcelona. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1862 "2014-06-27T13:05:41Z")
I asked this a while ago and never got a response, but it was also RIGHT when matches were beginning so no one probably gave a shit about my little question, but it’s slow now so Imma re-ask it: How much does coaching help in soccer? I know it varies from sport to sport, but I know much less about soccer than the rest of them, and I’m just curious. It seems to me like it is pretty important, but not paramount. Someone asked if the US was really that good, and my response would be “Yes, they have the talent, teamwork, and work ethic, but they seem really raw and could use some coaching”. But does coaching really help? ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1863 "2014-06-27T13:16:20Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Can you tell me just how “patchy” this Belgian team/squad is? We all know your best players, but are you struggling to fill certain areas of the team with quality? Im thinking along the lines of Wales here. Some great, great players in certain positions, some awful players in other positions. I’m not that much of a connoisseur to answer that question, sorry. I know that we lost our key striker (Benteke) just a few weeks before the World Cup. Lukaku was the obvious alternative but his performance has been disappointing. That may explain why we struggled to win in all our group matches. The coach has made some puzzling decisions, too. Deciding to do without Fellaini for the first hour of the match against Algeria for instance. Mirallas, a good and sometimes decisive winger, hasn’t played a lot either. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1864 "2014-06-27T13:30:28Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I asked this a while ago and never got a response, but it was also RIGHT when matches were beginning so no one probably gave a shit about my little question, but it’s slow now so Imma re-ask it: > > How much does coaching help in soccer? I know it varies from sport to sport, but I know much less about soccer than the rest of them, and I’m just curious. > > It seems to me like it is pretty important, but not paramount. Someone asked if the US was really that good, and my response would be “Yes, they have the talent, teamwork, and work ethic, but they seem really raw and could use some coaching”. But does coaching really help? This is an all important question that will result in a million different opinions. I suppose coaching is always important to an extent. However, you can also be overly coached. So instead of youngsters enjoying the game they are coached out of any pleasure for the game. Instead of being coached on how to kick and control a football they are coached on positional play or offside tactics to the detriment of basic technique. For professional teams successful football/soccer coaches are probably just as important as in other sports. Coaching a player on how to improve his ball skills is probably worthless at such an advanced age. However, a good coach can ensure his team plays with the correct tactics, play to their strengths, can motivate his players and so on. There are more than enough instances of soccer coaches making a difference throughout their careers to conclude their role is fairly important. There is a slight difference with coaches of national teams and club teams. National team coaches have to play with the cards they are dealt with i.e. players of that nationality. Club coaches can bring in players from anywhere. Club coaches therefore have a greater ability to change personnel. This is important in any sport. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1865 "2014-06-27T14:52:43Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Yeah, to some people world class means a world best 11 type player. To others it means they could play in any league in the world. The US doesn’t have the former, but I think Donovan, Dempsey, several of the GKs, and going back a bit, perhaps John O’Brien or Claudio Reyna, at their peak, fit the latter. Even if you loosen things up and make it, say, a “World 23”, the US still doesn’t have one of those players. Howard is in the discussion, I suppose, but Dempsey certainly isn’t at this point in his career. He might be Fulham’s best player of all time but Fulham is not exactly a leading light of English football. I think we can all agree that the US doesn’t have the sort of player that can take an otherwise mediocre team and make them champions, which is what **EinsteinsHund** seems to have been saying. That’s exactly what Messi and CR7 are. And Suarez, from the admittedly small sample size we’ve had. And Pirlo. I’ve heard a lot of Michael Bradley talk in the run-up to the tournament and frankly I have been unimpressed. He’s looked tremendously out of his depth at times. There are other players on the team that look like future stars - Fabian Johnson particularly stands out. Of course, there’s Altidore, but he seems to have been a bit pants at Sunderland. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1866 "2014-06-27T14:54:16Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > This is arguably untrue, at least for Tim Howard and Clint Dempsey. May I point out that I think its interesting that when asked if the US have every produced a ‘world-class’ player, you leave out Donovan, who is far closer to being ‘world-class’ than Dempsey. Though, even Donovan is not up to ‘world-class’ standards, IMO. He’s a great player, but not one of the tops in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1867 "2014-06-27T14:55:04Z")
Considering Donovan did not actually make the US team for this World Cup, it makes perfect sense to leave him out. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1868 "2014-06-27T15:18:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think we can all agree that the US doesn’t have the sort of player that can take an otherwise mediocre team and make them champions, which is what **EinsteinsHund** seems to have been saying. That’s exactly what Messi and CR7 are. And Suarez, from the admittedly small sample size we’ve had. And Pirlo. Right, that’s what I was going for. Take Germany’s winning side of the 1990 WC. All in all a solid squad, but somewhat technically restricted, but among them were some exceptional players like Lothar Matthäus, Rudi Völler or Jürgen Klinsmannsup[/sup] who did make a difference. Let’s wait for an American to become a key player for a team like Real, ManU or Bayern and the like, then we can talk. Sup[/sup]I don’t want to imply they were as good as Messi or Ronaldo (though you could make a case for Matthäus, a different, but also exceptional player), but those are extreme examples who belong to the all time best. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1869 "2014-06-27T15:19:32Z")
First day without matches… I don’t know what I’ll do with my time. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1870 "2014-06-27T15:24:41Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > First day without matches… I don’t know what I’ll do with my time. I’m going to have to… [shudder]… work! ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1871 "2014-06-27T15:24:45Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > First day without matches… I don’t know what I’ll do with my time. Apparently I’m supposed to be getting horrendously drunk. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1872 "2014-06-27T15:33:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Considering Donovan did not actually make the US team for this World Cup, it makes perfect sense to leave him out. It was responding to “The U.S. haven’t yet produced a world class player” - that is not limited to this World Cup. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1873 "2014-06-27T15:45:16Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Right, that’s what I was going for. Take Germany’s winning side of the 1990 WC. All in all a solid squad, but somewhat technically restricted, but among them were some exceptional players like Lothar Matthäus, Rudi Völler or Jürgen Klinsmannsup[/sup] who did make a difference. Let’s wait for an American to become a key player for a team like Real, ManU or Bayern and the like, then we can talk. > > Sup[/sup]I don’t want to imply they were as good as Messi or Ronaldo (though you could make a case for Matthäus, a different, but also exceptional player), but those are extreme examples who belong to the all time best. I thought Klinsmann was the best striker\* in the world in the late eighties/early nineties (given Marco Van Basten’s inability to stay healthy and Gary Lineker’s advancing age). I don’t think it’s unreasonable to argue he was a player of Messi’s calibre. Same goes for Matthaus. Voller is more of a debate. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > It was responding to “The U.S. haven’t yet produced a world class player” - that is not limited to this World Cup. Fair enough, though Donovan hasn’t had that much success as an international and most of his club achievements came in MLS. \*I consider Maradona more of an attacking midfielder than a striker, though I gather the “Number 10” is categorized differently depending on where you are. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1874 "2014-06-27T16:06:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I thought Klinsmann was the best striker\* in the world in the late eighties/early nineties (given Marco Van Basten’s inability to stay healthy and Gary Lineker’s advancing age). I don’t think it’s unreasonable to argue he was a player of Messi’s calibre. Same goes for Matthaus. Voller is more of a debate. > > Fair enough, though Donovan hasn’t had that much success as an international and most of his club achievements came in MLS. Messi is miles better than Klinsmann. He’s the best attacking player since Maradona (or possibly ever) and only the two Ronaldos are even in the ballpark in the last 30 years. IMO, of course. Donovan hasn’t had much international success? He has 57 goals in his career, tied for 16th all time. Also more than 50 assists. He’s basically been the best player in CONCACAF (which is a lower bar, admittedly) for a decade. He’s had a fine international career. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1875 "2014-06-27T16:09:02Z")
I’ll echo the Messi \> Klinsmann. I mean Messi is starting (though slightly premature, IMO) to enter the conversation of the best players of all time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1876 "2014-06-27T16:09:29Z")
Team success, not individual success. He’s won a Gold Cup, but that’s it, right? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1877 "2014-06-27T16:10:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Team success, not individual success. He’s won a Gold Cup, but that’s it, right? The first US squad to reach a Quarterfinal of the World Cup since 1930? 🆒 (He had individual success in that team success as well as he was voted FIFA’s Best Young Player Award of that World Cup) ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1878 "2014-06-27T16:11:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Team success, not individual success. He’s won a Gold Cup, but that’s it, right? Four Gold Cups. He’s an American, what do you want from him? Pele wouldn’t win anything else on the US team. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1879 "2014-06-27T16:48:51Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > The first US squad to reach a Quarterfinal of the World Cup since 1930? 🆒 > > (He had individual success in that team success as well as he was voted FIFA’s Best Young Player Award of that World Cup) Huh. I forgot he was on the 2002 WC team. Now: has he ever been among the top 10 players at his position? I don’t think so. As for Messi, unless I misremember none of his Argentina sides have ever progressed beyond the WC quarterfinals. He’s probably already the greatest club player of all time, but I think it’s slightly ridiculous to call him the best _player_ of all time without more international success. He seems to be stamping his name on this World Cup, so maybe he’ll justify the hype shortly. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840/1880 "2014-06-27T17:04:08Z")
Yes, I would include Donovan as world class. I was needlessly restricting myself to the current squad. I think people here are using a ludicrously high bar for the word “world-class,” i.e. only the top 5 current players in the world, only one of the best ever starting XI, etc. “World-class” to me means a player the media and top clubs around the world are going to uniformly notice (in a positive sense) and respect. Donovan and Dempsey have arguably earned that, and Howard has been one of the best keepers in the Premiere League, i.e. the top league in Europe. He is absolutely world-class, and he has been one of the top performers at this World Cup. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840.md?page=93) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brasil-2014/687840.md?page=95)